Piston vs. Rotary

[boobentuben]

i'm bi-valve i go both ways

[Three Valves]

i'm bi-valve i go both ways

I thought that meant you only play piston tubas in a month that has an "R" in it.

[bighonkintuba]

I have a thing for bivalve(r)s.

[Three Valves]

That one on top appears to have a thing for you.

[TheGoyWonder]

Sure there's a difference. Look at any piston valve, and look through the ports: they are never perfectly round, there's always a bump to accommodate the other ports. the air column gets a little pinched there.

Do rotors have these? Probably not.

[Michael Bush]

Sure there's a difference. Look at any piston valve, and look through the ports: they are never perfectly round, there's always a bump to accommodate the other ports. the air column gets a little pinched there.

Do rotors have these? Probably not.

Nor do MAW valves have them, but perhaps that's a bit of a special case.

[toobagrowl]

i'm bi-valve i go both ways

Should have known you were the kinky type, j/k Guess I'm also "bi-valve", as I own/play rotor & piston tubas

Seriously.....I like both rotors and pistons; I don't really care either way as long as they are well-made. But I may give rotors a slight edge since they require less maintenance.

I have a thing for bivalve(r)s.

That one on top appears to have a thing for you.

[eupher61]

It's more about the player and the overall instrument.

[MacedoniaTuba]

I believe the rotors demand more careful treatment,while I find pistons more accessible. The piston mechanism by itself contains less parts,which makes it easier for maintenance. First time I opened my rotors,I almost got heart attack. Putting back the rotary mechanism was nightmare for me. Concerning the air flow,my opinion is that the piston have more natural path for the flow. Just my opinion,might not be true:)))

[MaryAnn]

Some say slurring is harder on rotaries....I say it is different. As for mashing, I am incapable of mashing, and even have trouble landing on the buttons, while I have no trouble landing on rotor paddles.

More on "mashing"....my background is in violin, and if you want to talk playing delicately, that's pretty much at the top of the pile.
What I haven't seen mentioned is the timing of embouchure change to valve change....with rotors, you hit the pitch with your chops just as you hit bottom with the rotor paddle; all I can say about pistons is that it is different and I never quite got it as well as with rotors. If a horn has rotors of a different stroke length than the horn I am used to (I *am* talking *horn* here, not *tuba,*) I have to spend the time to adjust to the different stroke length, or I produce mud. I suspect I have never adjusted to the stroke length on a piston horn because pistons are so difficult for me to operate physically that I don't ever reach the point of fine tuning.

That said, it's probably time for a picture of beer or something.

[bort]

I believe the rotors demand more careful treatment,while I find pistons more accessible. The piston mechanism by itself contains less parts,which makes it easier for maintenance. First time I opened my rotors,I almost got heart attack. Putting back the rotary mechanism was nightmare for me. Concerning the air flow,my opinion is that the piston have more natural path for the flow. Just my opinion,might not be true:)))

I have only taken apart my rotary valves a few times before... and actually, I was only bold enough to do it before I was taking it to the shop anyway (so, if I ran into any horrible problems, I knew I could get it fixed!).

I actually had the opposite result. Taking it apart was very educational, and took a lot of the "mystery" out of how it works. I can't say that I would want to take it apart again, but at least I know how it all works now. Also, it's not something that you really have to do very often, or even at all. I may tinker around with it again sometime in the future, but mostly, I'm happy to pay someone to take it all apart and put it back together for me.

[swillafew]

I got my lesson in that just now from Dana Hofer. I am oil boy now.

[Walter Webb]

Bloke, when you spoke of "heavy, generous oiling," did you mean dripping a few drops of valve oil into the leadpipe each day, or that heavier oil onto the rotor shaft underneath the back cap, both, or what? How do you recommend a rotary tuba be oiled, generously?

Thanks to all who would like to chime in, Walter

[Peach]

Sure there's a difference. Look at any piston valve, and look through the ports: they are never perfectly round, there's always a bump to accommodate the other ports. the air column gets a little pinched there.

Do rotors have these? Probably not.

If you're saying pistons have MORE disruption to the airflow than rotors I'd have to disagree. That is why our trombone chums spend so much money on new fangled valve-systems rather than traditional rotors that we mostly use on Tubas, no?
Also, once a valve circuit is in play I'd say the difference is even more pronounced.

[b.williams]

I play both each day. Not much difference unless I ...

[Untersatz]

Nearly all of my student playing career was in public schools and universities playing sousaphone marching or an old upright Conn in concert.
That makes me a piston guy.

See that's the thing, I started out on a 3 valve King not a 2341, but an older version 3 piston version of it, anyways, from there I got my 1291, then I got my Willson, then I got my PT 18 MRP, and then I got rid of the Willson and got the Mack brass, again, can't express how much I enjoy the horn, but rotary valves are just different.

Same here! I've been a piston guy for over 40 years now, except for about 5 years after high school, I really missed playing A LOT, so I bought my own horn (my first non school owned tuba). It was a Yamaha YBB-641 rotary. I played it for about 6 years & then I had to retire from playing all together because of family commitments etc. The horn was in storage for 25+ years & when I finally decided to start playing again, the first thing I did was to sell the Yamaha (which was still in brand new condition) partly because I was mainly a piston guy (from my school days) and the 641 I had DID suffer from the funky Ab that many others have noted on this model. I feel most comfortable playing on a piston tuba, but I have recently acquired a B&S rotary horn & am getting used to the paddles again. So for a guy who is admittedly a "piston guy" at heart, I am finding equal satisfaction in playing on both types of valves. So the moral of the story here is that it's not just one or the other, but what YOU feel most comfortable on! And in my case they both work equally well for me! Do B&S AND Miraphone AND several other makes of rotary valve tubas have exceptionally smooth valves? YEP & that may have a lot to do with why after all these years, I'm finding that rotary valves ARE working out just fine for an old "piston guy"

[TheGoyWonder]

Might rotors have more turns?

A piston has typically a 90 degree turn, and not too sharp of one. Top-action valves have to turn another 90 right away, front-action valves can run straight out.

Doesn't a rotor have a 180 degree turn, plus usually a 90 degree turn to get out of the valve block? Or you could call it a 90 degree turn with a swerve for the rotor. Like you're drawing a duck head. Advantage piston?

[jsmn4vu]

A rotor, when not activated, is typically straight-through with a swerve. When activated, it's typically a pair of 90-degree turns (one outgoing, one incoming). Key word is "typically."

[PaulMaybery]

"Turns and Turbulence: Atmospheric Behavior Within a Tubular Wind Tunnel ." Horns have turns all over the place. Some tight and others more gradual. There are also little bumps or gaps where tuning slides 'telescope' and ah yes, the tiny chimney at the water key. There are variations on tuning crooks. Some such as vintage Conns have what is referred to as a "double radius" (somewhat squarish) others such as King a "single radius" more rounded. There are those that taut that such features have an effect. Other respected horn "engineers" say it is gibberish or "psycho- acoustics." A dear friend is a trumpet builder. He has designed in his early years some very interesting equipment. At one time an assortment of bells, lead pipes, receivers, tuning crooks etc. Each was an attempt to get yet a better and more beautiful sound, response and intonation, (which due to his genius they each did.) AKA - so then - the perfect horn. Each element when installed on an existing horn, indeed made a substantial difference. Then the folly began to develop. Why not build one trumpet with all of them? The result wound up becoming a horn that was so free blowing that there was so little resistance, hence no center or core to the sound, hence no intonation and hence really no viable response. Another well known engineer who consults for major brass makers was there for guidance. His sage comment was that it is all about 'turbulence' and how it is managed. Turbulence is what gives the natural character to a horn. A good tuba design will be engineered to take into account where the turbulence occurs along the tube and how to manage such things as the relationship of where the nodes are, how quickly and where does it taper and all that. Even the choke of the bell can have an enormous effect upon intonation. So - there are differences between pistons and rotary - it is science - they are simply not the same. If you don't change anything, you can not expect different results. That is insanity. I believe it was Einstein that once said "If nothing changes, then, nothing changes." The differences are indeed there. The choice is personal. If you wish for something else, it will not be until you make a change. And ... then it will not be the same as what was. There are good and not-so-good examples of both. Each has the potential to be successful.

OMG - I get myself deeper and deeper in this quagmire. Hope you enjoyed the story. I suppose I should throttle myself a bit.

Paul, "Who this AM should have taken this time to take a walk" Maybery