buzzing on the mouthpiece...NO one agrees with me, EXCEPT...

[MacedoniaTuba]

I saw this comment about the Lindberg video on the Facebook profile of Mr. Sergio Carolino. I consider his sound on the tuba as one of the richest and most beautiful worldwide,which doesn't have to be everyones opinion,but that's what his status is about.

"I Agree with Christian Lindberg... For many years I've stopped to play or do exercises on the mouthpiece just because I was feeling the same thing: the sound was horrible! Meanwhile, I still blow and buzz just a bit on the mouthpiece before starting to play on my instrument, so that the lips and the skin can feel the metal!.. Anyway, it's very personal and I think that each individual should see what's the best for himself and if it helps or not the sound or tone quality production ... Anyway, we are our best teachers!! Peace, SC."

I guess the Peace at the end is knowing that this is quite a specific discussion:)):)):))

[happyroman]

I *completely* agree with this man, but (having little "cred") *always* am shouted down on internet discussion lists.

Thanks for posting this, Bloke.

I'm just a has-been nobody, but I have never felt that mouthpiece buzzing was useful (for me, at least). In fact, I've always felt like some sort of a slouch for not doing it as part of my practice routine.

I believe this is where there may be the most disagreement. I (and perhaps Lindberg guy...??) believe that our lips are VIBRATING when we play, whereas some others may perceive that lips are BUZZING (against each other) as we play.

When I was younger, I would experiment by taking the horn away from my mouth while playing a note, just to see how "strong" the "buzz" was, only to be disappointed that there was no audible buzz of any kind whatever. I eventually just rationalized this by telling myself that I must have some sort of "freak" embouchure that produces tones without a "buzz".

Buzzing is simply another term for the sound made due to the vibration of the lips. Mr. Jacobs is very clear that what he wants is for the player to develop a strong vibration of the lips, as this corresponds to more resonance in the sound.

It is definitely, however, a skill that has to be developed over time. Because it is more difficult to get the lips to vibrate by playing on the mouthpiece alone, the act of developing this skill makes it easier to get the vibration when we go back to the instrument.

[happyroman]

However, what is the same is that, in order for the lips to vibrate, we must send a message to the lips from the brain instructing them to vibrate. In this aspect, playing a brass instrument is similar to singing. The vibration (of the vocal chords and the lips) is a response to a stimulus. Mr. Jacobs used to say that the lips are not wooden reeds, which vibrate in response to air blowing across them. The lips do not have to vibrate just because we blow air across them. In fact, the lips can resist the air flow and not vibrate at all. The lips vibrate in response to the stimulus from the brain, and this is the same on the mouthpiece alone or on the tuba.

It's kind of interesting to read about operation of the vocal chords. Or as we'd call them these days it appears, vocal folds. "Vocal reeds" apparently has been accepted usage, too.

The larynx is a major (but not the only) source of sound in speech, generating sound through the rhythmic opening and closing of the vocal folds. To oscillate, the vocal folds are brought near enough together such that air pressure builds up beneath the larynx. The folds are pushed apart by this increased subglottal pressure, with the inferior part of each fold leading the superior part. Under the correct conditions, this oscillation pattern will sustain itself. In essence, sound is generated in the larynx by chopping up a steady flow of air into little puffs of sound waves.

The perceived pitch of a person's voice is determined by a number of different factors, most importantly the fundamental frequency of the sound generated by the larynx. The fundamental frequency is influenced by the length, size, and tension of the vocal folds. This frequency averages about 125 Hz in an adult male, 210 Hz in adult females, and over 300 Hz in children. ...

The vocal folds generate a sound rich in harmonics. The harmonics are produced by collisions of the vocal folds with themselves, by recirculation of some of the air back through the trachea, or both. Some singers can isolate some of those harmonics in a way that is perceived as singing in more than one pitch at the same time—a technique called overtone singing or throat singing.

No mention is made here of stimulus from the brain, but of course anything we consciously control, we do so via stimulus from the brain, that's a given. But just as with brass playing, it's done by catching that subglottal pressure at a certain point where the elastic vocal folds resonate, just like a reed really.

It's interesting to see how similar it really is, to what seems to happen with the lips in a brass instrument - and it's interesting to read elsewhere in the same "vocal folds" article, that the tissue here changes a lot, I mean very significant physiological changes, between a baby's larynx and a fully developed voice generator - partly in response to mechanical stimulation, i.e. (I think) we develop our voices by physical training that significantly changes the vocal fold tissue. And I suppose likewise for lip tissue.

I would just make a couple of minor points. First of all, the stimulus that generates the vibration in the lips of vocal folds is not controlled the conscious, or thinking part of the brain. The actual control of the muscles is performed by subconscious regions of the brain, in response to the command sent to it by the thinking part of the brain. The thinking brain hears a pitch, like middle C, and then the subconscious part tries to imitate what we are hearing. Both parts of the brain are in use, but there cannot (or should not) be any conscious control over the muscles involved. Its like raising one's arm over their head. The thinking brain directs the arm to be placed in the upper position, but the actual lifting involves muscles all over the body, none of which are under conscious control.

As to your second point, there will absolutely be hypertrophy of tissue as the lips or vocal folds are stimulated over time. It is the simple concept of use it or lose it. If we lay off for a period of time, the muscles will start to atrophy.

[Donn]

As to your second point, there will absolutely be hypertrophy of tissue as the lips or vocal folds are stimulated over time. It is the simple concept of use it or lose it. If we lay off for a period of time, the muscles will start to atrophy.

Part of what I found interesting was that vocal folds aren't muscle, it's roughly speaking connective tissue. In several layers, with various degrees of elasticity. This layered structure develops over say from 11 months to 13 years, and it's still really a bit a mystery how that happens but there seems to be some thinking that mechanical stimulation plays a role. So, yeah, use it or lose it in any case, but it isn't just muscle tissue developing here, and probably not in the lips either.

Where the analogy breaks down, though, is that as speech and vocal folds developed together over eons, they're almost guaranteed to work out. Tubas and lips are a more recent thing, with less selective pressure etc. Development is not guaranteed to produce desired results.

[roweenie]

I *completely* agree with this man, but (having little "cred") *always* am shouted down on internet discussion lists.

Thanks for posting this, Bloke.

I'm just a has-been nobody, but I have never felt that mouthpiece buzzing was useful (for me, at least). In fact, I've always felt like some sort of a slouch for not doing it as part of my practice routine.

I believe this is where there may be the most disagreement. I (and perhaps Lindberg guy...??) believe that our lips are VIBRATING when we play, whereas some others may perceive that lips are BUZZING (against each other) as we play.

When I was younger, I would experiment by taking the horn away from my mouth while playing a note, just to see how "strong" the "buzz" was, only to be disappointed that there was no audible buzz of any kind whatever. I eventually just rationalized this by telling myself that I must have some sort of "freak" embouchure that produces tones without a "buzz".

Buzzing is simply another term for the sound made due to the vibration of the lips. Mr. Jacobs is very clear that what he wants is for the player to develop a strong vibration of the lips, as this corresponds to more resonance in the sound.

It is definitely, however, a skill that has to be developed over time. Because it is more difficult to get the lips to vibrate by playing on the mouthpiece alone, the act of developing this skill makes it easier to get the vibration when we go back to the instrument.

This is an excellent discussion.

I never had the good fortune to study with Mr. Jacobs, but I did study with folks who studied with Mr. Bell (and possibly Mr. Jacobs too) so I'm sure that when mouthpiece buzzing was presented to me in lessons, I was a recipient of the method, at least indirectly.

I was merely happy to learn that the buzz produced on the mouthpiece alone does not necessarily need to be reproduced *exactly* into the horn to achieve *success*.

I understand that mouthpiece buzzing in itself is a technique that needs specific practice and cultivation. I also understand that for some folks, it can be beneficial. I just never felt that it held anything for me personally, other than as a way to warm up when blowing into the horn itself is impossible or undesirable.

[roweenie]

Mark, at the risk of portraying myself as a hypocrite (although I'm really not, since all my previous comments applied to my own personal situation), you are absolutely correct. I taught approximately 30 students a week for 2 years (not nearly as many as you!) and I found mouthpiece buzzing to be an excellent tool to start beginners, and to occasionally diagnose problems with others.

My point was that with me, specifically, as a young impressionable conservatory student, the whole "buzzing the mouthpiece" thing gave me a major head-trip, almost to the point that I thought I was doing something wrong because the "buzz" I was putting into the horn was not the same as the "buzz" I was putting into the mouthpiece alone.

[thevillagetuba]

I have never been told to create a nice sounding buzz. My teachers gave always wanted a less-note-focused and a more air-focused. If done correctly, it will be quite difficult to get your full range without the horn, but can be done with practice.

As soon as you start aiming for a good sounding buzz, then you'll use poor technique. Buzzing should be just as unattractive a sound as the bassoonist with just their reed.

[Tubaryan12]

The *only* times I've done this has been with some artificial resistance (that makes buzzing the mouthpiece feel somewhat like "playing a tuba" rather than "playing the entire earth's atmosphere").

With artificial resistance (perhaps: blocking off 50% or more of the hole in the back of the mouthpiece), mouthpiece buzzing can BOTH
- sort-of feel like "playing a tuba" (with the lips *apart*, and not mashed against each other), and
- allow for the player to check the accuracy of the frequencies (pitches) of their buzzing.

For years I thought there was something wrong with the way I buzzed because I couldn't make the mouthpiece buzz without adding resistance to the airflow. At least now I know it's not unusual. (please, no Tom Jones or Carlton links)

[thevillagetuba]

For years I thought there was something wrong with the way I buzzed because I couldn't make the mouthpiece buzz without adding resistance to the airflow. At least now I know it's not unusual. (please, no Tom Jones or Carlton links)

I was taught to, and always have my students, start with buzzing with the pinky partially covering the hole and then we slowly work to no resistance. I have found that the lack of resistance helps to increase flow, especially in the low range.

[roweenie]

I was taught to, and always have my students, start with buzzing with the pinky partially covering the hole and then we slowly work to no resistance. I have found that the lack of resistance helps to increase flow, especially in the low range.

I find this interesting, because I've found exactly the opposite to be the case. The only way I can get the mouthpiece alone to "buzz" (that is, make the "unattractive crow-style" buzz sound to which we are referring) in the lowest register is to *add* resistance (ie. putting my finger over part of the shank-hole).

I have always felt that a certain amount of resistance is vital to production of low tones - the trick is finding the fine balance between resistance and stuffiness.

[thevillagetuba]

I was taught to, and always have my students, start with buzzing with the pinky partially covering the hole and then we slowly work to no resistance. I have found that the lack of resistance helps to increase flow, especially in the low range.

I find this interesting, because I've found exactly the opposite to be the case. The only way I can get the mouthpiece alone to "buzz" (that is, make the "unattractive crow-style" buzz sound to which we are referring) in the lowest register is to *add* resistance (ie. putting my finger over part of the shank-hole).

I have always felt that a certain amount of resistance is vital to production of low tones - the trick is finding the fine balance between resistance and stuffiness.

It was hard for me for a while, but my professor in undergrad was big on buzzing for flow in the low range, so I have been able to develop A consistent buzz in the low register without any resistance. (I have at times worked on buzzing lines from the Snedecor book).

[roweenie]

Village Tuba, I'm glad to see that you have mastered that particular art. I just never saw much use in perfecting it myself, but to each his own

[thevillagetuba]

Village Tuba, I'm glad to see that you have mastered that particular art. I just never saw much use in perfecting it myself, but to each his own

Well, thanks roweenie, but I would never call anything I do as being mastered.

[roweenie]

I can turn my mouthpiece upside-down, seal up the mouthpiece rim with the palm of my hand, blow hard across the opening in the back of the mouthpiece, and make this horribly shrill very high pitch that makes everybody's ears ring.

It might hurt my ears, but I don't think it hurts my tuba-playing that much.

I think your sarcasm is rather unbecoming, especially since you are the one responsible for this mess

(just kidding - actually, it's been quite interesting)

[roweenie]

I will be certain to try it at the earliest possible opportunity.

I just hope the (w)ringing won't include my neck, too....

[Paul Scott]

A rarity on Tubenet: an interesting discussion! I think that the main point is that there are many ways of approaching the playing/teaching of the tuba. My two primary tuba teachers both came out of what could be called the William Bell-NYC school of tuba. The empasis seemed to be different from what I see today. Pedal tones were not seen to be very important and there certainly was little discussion of equipment. The idea was to do great things with what you had. Don Butterfield never advocated mouthpiece buzzing and the subject was never discussed, (and this was a man who could discuss, believe me), I've had conversations with his other students and they tell me the same story, (I'd love to hear from anyone who did mouthpiece buzzing with Mr.Butterfield). Pat Landolfi mixed in much of Arnold Jacob's teaching when Mr.Jacob's methods became more widely known in the early 1980s. Mouthpiece buzzing was included in this mix and I did find it beneficial for me. I benefited greatly from both of these gentlemen.

In my own teaching, (28 years of public school work and 20 plus years teaching tuba at a local university) my approach has varied. I think there's a tendency to be more rigid in methodology during ones' early years of teaching, at least that was true for me. At the university, I used to assign specific solfege assignments to be sung and buzzed each week. While I'm sure this was beneficial, I now realize that this took time away from many other things that we might have been covering. Now I'm more apt to present mouthpiece buzzing as a tool which can be used to remedy certain specific problems in playing the tuba. These problems include consistently missed partials, a small weak sound, inadequate inhalation and poor articulation. Generally, the buzzing involved can be done effectively in less than a minute and with most students we may do it during one lesson out of five. I agree that a little resistance can be helpful and I often use one the early metal "berps" with a few holes blocked up when I buzz. For me, I buzz the mouthpiece at times when I feel too tired (read lazy) to pick up the horn. It seems to help me maintain my brain-chop connection.

It is very true that the buzz most people produce on the mouthpiece does not resemble what will create a good sound on the horn. This can be corrected using a technique that is advocated by trombonist Sam Burtis, among others. That is, sustain a long tone on the horn using your best possible sound and slowly withdraw the mouthpiece. The ideal buzz should then be revealed and with some practice you may be able to find this "corrected buzz" with the mouthpiece alone. But I also believe that in many ways it doesn't matter that the sound is different. Mr. Jacobs' idea was simply to remove the tuba from the equation, creating the "strangeness" that he advocated for change. A similar tactic is used in "wind patterns", i.e. simply blowing air through the lips without buzzing following the phrases of the music. This technique removes the fear of error while promoting good breath flow. Trumpet players seem to be more hip to this technique but it's great for all brass players.

While I am an advocate of buzzing I have great respect for my colleagues who reject this method. There are many, many ways to approach playing and that's part of the fun, (yes, fun....playing music on the tuba should be fun). Lately, I've seen tuba students having great success playing the Vince Cichowicz moving long tones, originally written for trumpet. Nothing like this was advocated by either of my teachers but I've added that into the mix. And so it goes.

[Alex C]

As a fan and student of Arnold Jacobs I believe in playing the mouthpiece. The "free buzz" is not part of that approach because the rim of the mouthpiece is actually part of the embouchure.

Imagine my confusion when I heard Bill Watrous doing all kinds of tricks playing and freebuzzing through a ride. He is a phenomenal musician, Herseth is a phenomenal musician, so was Harvey Phillips. All had different approaches to playing.

I reached the same conclusion some others have stated. Mouthpiece buzzing works for a particular approach to playing, there are other approaches. If you want to sound like Jacobs, use that mouthpiece. If you want to sound like Harvey, don't bother. Etc. for the tuba player you want to sound like.

And I second Paul. As you get older your acceptance of other methods widens.

[Erik_Sweden]

Interesting tread. Is it the thought of you TubeNeter that the lips touching each other during playing is as bad thing ?

[Doug Elliott]

What players THINK they're doing is not always the same as what's actually happening.

The lips have to be touching at some point in the vibration cycle. The sound vibration is produced by the pulsation of air, and there wouldn't be much pulsation if they were just flapping in the breeze without a complete cycle.

It's not at all surprising that the sound will start or stop with a change in resistance, for those players who depend on feedback from the instrument to sustain the vibration.

[MaryAnn]

I think there is an entire trumpet method based on this...but can't remember the name. They start by just buzzing the leadpipe, and there is NO lip buzz. There is a youtube video, wish I could find it, of a guy with a torch and a glass tube about 3 feet long. He sticks the torch inside the tube, and after a second or so the vibrating air from the torch produces a very clear tone. No buzzing going on, which is the point they are trying to make.

Me....my tuba high range has no buzz. Just the shape of the hole in the face. It is easy, and I see a lot of other people at my level with their faces all screwed up with effort to clamp their lips in order to buzz in that range. There has been discussion off and on on the old horn list about tone being produced only by the size of the hole in your face. Get the air going, form the proper aperture around it, and the tube resonates. So yeah I agree with the guy too but don't know how well I put it into practice.