America West new policy

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Rick Denney
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Post by Rick Denney »

ThomasDodd wrote:When a reasonable percentage of the population stops being obese, they'l fit comfortably in the current seats.
For a guy who thinks as conservatively as you do, you sure are quick to jump on the obesity bandwagon. Next, you'll be quoting body mass indexes and prescribing diets to people who you don't think are working hard enough to be thin.

My carry-on is not overstuffed, and it's the same brand the airline people use. I never test the limits of what can be carried on. I do not harass the gate agents, and do not try to board the plane out of order. I stow my bags in the overhead appropriately (wheels first instead of sideways), and choose bags that will work that way. I dress appropriately to be in close quarters with other people (i.e., no shorts on the airplane). I always have the correct ID and flight documentation available at the correct times. In short, I contribute as little as possible to the operating cost of the airlines. I'm like most regular business travelers, but utterly unlike most tourists, who routinely screw up every item above. Yet those people are rewarded with lower fares because they don't care when they leave or when they arrive (or, that's what they say, but when they are delayed, they scream louder than anybody). But I was born with my bones and putting me (or people larger than me) in a separate and more pricey service because of it is a back-of-the-bus response.

What I think they should do is get rid of those paying less than it costs to fly them, remove those seats, and give everyone who is actually paying their way a bit of extra room. Those people may be skinny, but they are not carrying their weight.

Rick "who thinks most airplanes are like a Greyhound bus" Denney
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ThomasDodd
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Post by ThomasDodd »

Rick Denney wrote:
ThomasDodd wrote:When a reasonable percentage of the population stops being obese, they'l fit comfortably in the current seats.
For a guy who thinks as conservatively as you do, you sure are quick to jump on the obesity bandwagon. Next, you'll be quoting body mass indexes and prescribing diets to people who you don't think are working hard enough to be thin.
I'm talkuing the business setting the standard, not the governement. The government is too involved already.
But I was born with my bones and putting me (or people larger than me) in a separate and more pricey service because of it is a back-of-the-bus response.
Having not met you, I wouldn't comment on your size. But, how wide do you siggest the seats be?
My chair at work is 21" across, but there are other chairs here that are 18" and 16". All are comfortable to me. Several large guys (50" waist large) here sit in the 18" chairs quite often.
What I think they should do is get rid of those paying less than it costs to fly them, remove those seats, and give everyone who is actually paying their way a bit of extra room. Those people may be skinny, but they are not carrying their weight.
Those cheap fares come at a heavy price. Like not geeting a seat because of overbooking. And they are non-refundable, and you cannot change travel dates.

Full fare, you usually have a set assigned at purchase, no bumps. You can change travel dates, and even return the ticket for a refund. Those are the reasons my employer buys full fare for business flights. I've had trips cancled, and return dates pushed back weeks. All domestic flights have had seats assigned at purchase time.

But yeah, they need to add a little room, maybe one less row of seats. Business class for CONUS filghts would be nice too. Let all the cheap skates fly in a cramped coach, and give they full fare folk a nicer section.
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ThomasDodd wrote:I'm talkuing the business setting the standard, not the governement. The government is too involved already.
How exactly would that happen? Put up a "sizing gate" and an airline will be sued, probably on the first day. Then the courts can decide it.
Having not met you, I wouldn't comment on your size. But, how wide do you siggest the seats be?
Just what I suggested before. Wide enough so that 95% of their paying customers can sit in them without unduly invading the space of their neighbors.
Those cheap fares come at a heavy price. Like not geeting a seat because of overbooking. And they are non-refundable, and you cannot change travel dates.
Thanks for explaining how it works, heh, heh (sacrastically quips the guy who can probably still identify the exit row on a dozen or so different equipment configurations, and who gets one of those shiny gold Premiere Executive cards from the airline every year). Of course, clients see those cheap fares and then decide they will only pay those cheap fares. So, I'm often forced to eat the entire cost of a ticket when my client's plans change, setting up a big argument about the contents of our invoice. (Our big client is the Federal Government--their employees get to fly at negotiated rates with no advance notice, but they won't give us those credentials even though they expect us get the same prices.) On those occasions when I am forced to travel at the last minute, I often have to eat part of the cost of my trip because the client is shocked--SHOCKED!--at the cost of the ticket. I'm hoping the big airlines go broke soon so better minds can come in and take over, even though it will cost me a pile of free tickets that I have earned.

Not all flights have reserved seats. Southwest airlines serves business travelers day in and day out with profitable, cheerful service by allowing first-come, first-served seating that rewards those who know how their system works. But they just don't have much of a presence up here. When I lived in Texas, I knew the drill and got a good seat nearly every time. United has become a seething cauldron of hate by comparison. I despise flying any more.

Rick "who bought a raggedy old motorhome to prevent ever having to fly for 'fun'" Denney
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Post by ThomasDodd »

Rick Denney wrote:
ThomasDodd wrote:I'm talkuing the business setting the standard, not the governement. The government is too involved already.
How exactly would that happen? Put up a "sizing gate" and an airline will be sued, probably on the first day. Then the courts can decide it.
That's another, seperate problem. Better served with the old politics forum:)

But, I suggest, if such a gate were errected, in the name of passenger safety, it would avoid the courts. The current system, make the POS decision arbitrary, and at the descression of the airline counter agents(or managers). If the gate were there, it no longer arbitrary, either you fit, or you don't. Just like if someone says "taht bag is too big" and it fits in the box, it's not. If it doesn't fit, it's too big. End of discussion.

How would physical size ristrictions on a passenger be any different that amusement part rides that have similar restrictions? They aren't constantly in court.

If an airline wanted to cater to "large" passengers, they are free to do so, just like "Big & Tall" stores do. I wouldn't got there expecting to find clothes to fit me, and more than my 6'5" brother-in-law expect to find clothes at Wal-Mart.


quote]
Having not met you, I wouldn't comment on your size. But, how wide do you siggest the seats be?
Just what I suggested before. Wide enough so that 95% of their paying customers can sit in them without unduly invading the space of their neighbors.[/quote]

No numbers? I suspect that the seat already fit 80% of the customers fine. So a littler larger, or a row or two of larger seat, reserve first for larger customers would be a valid option. But again, some non-arbitraryy method need to be in place for deciding who uses them. If you are more than X wide you get one (first come first serve). If you are less than X wide, you must move if somone larger needs the seat.

Rick "who bought a raggedy old motorhome to prevent ever having to fly for 'fun'" Denney
Perhaps you should look into a co-op owned private plane? Anyone know what they cost now?
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Post by Rick Denney »

ThomasDodd wrote:No numbers? I suspect that the seat already fit 80% of the customers fine. So a littler larger, or a row or two of larger seat, reserve first for larger customers would be a valid option. But again, some non-arbitraryy method need to be in place for deciding who uses them. If you are more than X wide you get one (first come first serve). If you are less than X wide, you must move if somone larger needs the seat.

...

Perhaps you should look into a co-op owned private plane? Anyone know what they cost now?
I hate flying, but sitting in an even more cramped Gulfstream, where you have to bend at the waist to go to the lavatory, is not designed to assuage my hatred. As much as I hate the airport experience, the small-plane experience is even worse. (My father in law is a retired Washington Center ATC with 12,000 hours and his own plane, and my wife's uncle owns four planes and retired from a career teaching aircraft mechanics, to which he flew every day from his back-forty airstrip. Her great-uncle retired a few years ago after a life of brokering corportate jets, and he got too old to fly and had to sell his own Citation. We are all meeting at Oshkosh probably next year, but I'll be arriving in my raggedy motorhome, thank you.)

Providing oversized seats for oversized passengers is a resonable accommodation, as long as they are provided to those who show the need and not at double the rate. I would not qualify for those seats, but I'd be glad not to have to sit next to someone who did. But I'll survive being cramped any day before seeing the anti-fat crowd mark off a significant percentage of the population as being unfit for travel by air. It's too much a requirement for many jobs, like being able to drive a car.

80% isn't good enough, considering that human bodies are 70% water which is an incompressible fluid.

My point is that it should be population itself that determines what a reasonable size is, and not some sanctimonious skinny policy-maker, whether his business card says an airline or the government.

And providing a means of carrying the tools of one's trade should be accommodated by a clearly stated policy that provides equitable treatment to customers (meaning golf-club toters pay their fair share).

Rick "who almost used the word 'tuba'" Denney
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Post by ThomasDodd »

Rick Denney wrote:I hate flying, but sitting in an even more cramped Gulfstream, where you have to bend at the waist to go to the lavatory, is not designed to assuage my hatred.
I guess. I never use onboard bathrooms, excpet for intenational flights. I can go before boarding, and after landing. Anything over 2 hours, and I usually sleep. Still, most adults can got 3-4 hours without a bathroom. On the few occsions you need one, a cramped space is fine.
Providing oversized seats for oversized passengers is a resonable accommodation, as long as they are provided to those who show the need and not at double the rate.
I was thionkg more, for the "big & tall" crowd, and no no extra fee. Hence the requiements. But they also have to be used by "normal size" passengers for cost reasons. There'd still be an Oversize, POS, fee for a true extra seat.

So normal seats are ~ 16-18" Large, "big & tall" seats are 21" (and 3-6" extra leg room?)
Normal covers 80% of the passengers. Large get you to 97%. But you still need to deal with the truely obese/huge. Think William "The Refridgerator" Perry size, Or a 56" waist.
But I'll survive being cramped any day before seeing the anti-fat crowd mark off a significant percentage of the population as being unfit for travel by air.
I'm not suggesting they are unfit, nor being anti-fat. But does that mean every seat should accomodad the largest possible person? I know people that won't fit in my recliner at home. Should I have to buy a chair bigenough for them? I think it too large already.
My point is that it should be population itself that determines what a reasonable size is, and not some sanctimonious skinny policy-maker, whether his business card says an airline or the government.
I don't. The airline should decide what a reasonable size is for their passengers. It's be nice if the sizes were shared via an industry standard, for ease of choosing multiple companies. But The size limit chosen should be posted, and equally enforced.

Why should anyone dictate who a company's customers are? If I want to only fly people under 6' and under 200 lbs so be ity. I'll loose a lot of customers, including some under my limit, but traveling with outher that aren't. Same as the smoking bans in CA. If you want to have a non-smoking bar, fine, but some people like to smocke and drink at the same time. Why can I not provide such a service?

I feel the same with air travel too. The airlines should have had that choice, either the whole company, or select flights could be smoking or non. Again, offering customers what they want. I want a smoking flight from Atlanta to San Francisco, you want larger seats. We should each have the option of flying with the airline that meets out needs.
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Post by Tubaryan12 »

I got to chime in on this one. I may not be as small as the charts say I should be, but my shoulders won't even fit within the back of those seats. Even when I cross my arms my shoulder still are wider than the seat. Now, let's talk about leg room. I just wish there was enough room for me to get my size 15 feet under the seat if there is a bag there too. This could be easily fixed if they would remove just 1 row of seats from each side of the plane. Its amazing what an extra couple of inches of legroom can do (exit row seats). The last trip I took was on a 50 seat plane. If they removed 4 seats and split the cost over the remaining passengers (at $500 per ticket) it would raise the cost of my flight by about $45. I'd pay that much per leg easily to have a comfortable ride. Considering the fact that the ticket each way was only about $200 the cost would be a lot less ( $18 ). Slightly staggering the seats so that no one was shoulder to shoulder would help also (and they wouldnt have to remove the entire row).
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