End of Cerveny?

[iiipopes]

Sounds similar to what happed to Besson, with the closing of the Edgeware Road factory, bankruptcy (or in the UK, receivership), company purchased, a few years of instability, transition of manufacturing, and now settled as a new iteration under the same name. That is what I see happening to Cerveny/Amati.

[groth]

To me it's not really a China vs. thing. It is really more of a "item with a soul" deal. I've been riding Vespa's for many years. They have a certain charm as Italy's answer for personal transport after WWII and the Mod Revolution in the 60's. I've owned versions from the 60's, 70's, those made in India and a current modern vespa (2016). I can feel the history when I ride.

Being a former Vespa rider myself, I admit they have a certain charm and history, but all to often "charm" and "personality" means "unreliable" and "costly to maintain and/or repair". Maybe its just me, but I prefer a boring, but reliable Japanese car (or chinese tuba) over a "charming", but unstable and high-maintanence italian car (or czheck tuba) any day. YMMV of course.

High maintenance Czech tuba? what's that supposed to mean? All the Amati/Cerveny products I've owned have been lower maintenance than any American horn I've ever own.

[groth]

That's damage repair, not maintenance. All metallic tootin' horns are subject to it.

[Donn]

I can't remember the valves ever sticking on any of.

Do the stencils count? I had a Lignatone helicon where the 2nd valve occasionally locked up, at the open position. Never really sure what caused that, but I believe the linkage was pretty worn. Loud enough that I got comments. Clock springs. Good sounding tuba.

[Ace]

I can't remember the valves ever sticking on any of. My cerveny tubas, not matter how long they sit 2without being played. Also, it's never hard to use the valve slide suction to get oil into the back bearing. Some brands make it so difficult to get oil into (not on top of) the bearing you have to take apart the valve just to get them to move at all.

My Cerveny CC tuba 601-5MR (circa 1995) had the best rotor valves of any of the many tubas I have owned. Silent, fast, and smooth.

Ace

[bigtubby]

There are no sources in that post. Not saying it isn't true, but before we get in a panic, who did he hear this from?

Uwe Schneider is a reputable source in East Germany, if anyone would know it would be him. I don't think anyone has anything to gain by reporting this, it's just a sad fact.

Just FWIW I would be more than happy to honestly assess Mr. Schneider's veracity and knowledgeability from two firsthand experiences in PM. Yeah, shame on me for sure.

I'm not around here much these days so be patient.

[Rick Denney]

I wish the older instrument manufacturers had adapted and built a higher quality stuff. It just makes me a bit sad to see them go.

The problem with Cerveny had nothing to do with the loss of standards. It had everything to do with central economic planning in Czechoslovakia under Soviet control. The only way people would buy them is because they were a lot cheaper, and the way to make them cheaper is to use thinner, softer brass that is cheaper and easier to form, and applying the most minimal finishing and decoration. That was fine for house brands to sell as budget instruments back in the day, and the instruments themselves were a reasonable value. And some where more than that. But durable they are not. Beautifully detailed they are not.

It was really after the collapse of the Soviet empire that the companies might have stepped up to build to a higher standard. B&S did; Cerveny did not. But B&S was allowed to build to a higher standard in the first place, too. And those who remember how to do it at Cerveny were long gone.

Rick "who owned an early-80's Cerveny (Sanders label) bought new" Denney

[Tom]

This was in the era before Chinese tubas were close to being acceptable, so Cerveny was one of the only "budget" games in town

Yes, there's something to this. I was a student during that time frame you mentioned. The school districts at that time mostly had Miraphone tubas purchased in the late 1960s to early 1980s or they had Yamaha tubas from the mid-1980s. However, my experience and observation was that any time a new school opened up or a tuba finally made it's way to a purchase order, Cerveny tubas showed up. Directors were being told (I overheard this myself at one point) that they could buy two Cerveny 681 BBb tubas for the price of a single Miraphone 186 and they were "just as good." Directors and band boosters were quick to jump on that band wagon, so there are quite a few late 1990s - early 2000s Cerveny tubas in my area obtained during that time. The Chinese tubas were not really developed at that point, so there was no other real budget competition.

I don't know if they were cranking out as many as they could or not, but they seemed to have (via distributors and retailers) been exploited to fill the budget instrument by building their products to a price point specifically.

I agree with Joe's remaks regarding the promotion of B&S vs. Cerveny and others. I can read between the lines and know exactly who, what, when, and where you are referring to. I feel as though Cerveny never had good distribution and retailing in the United States. Walter Sear did some importing & sold stencil Cerveny tubas but who was before that? Who was after that? They seemed to be available off and on in the 1990s and 2000s from some of the big dealers, but rarely were actually stocked.

[Donn]

Reunification was 1990; instruments made before that time were produced under central economic planning, and were made thin to reduce expenditure on brass? Just curious, as to whether a Lignatone Eb helicon that I used to have would have had this thin brass. Didn't notice that - I would have said for example the early '80s Miraphone I had for a while was thinner - but that's the fuzzy memories of an old guy.

[Donn]

Legend maybe, I think I'd say "myth" when speaking about the importance of horn alloys.

Isn't it another legend or whatever, that Holton 340 and relatives were mostly junk, but could be turned into gems by re-assembling them with care? That right off hand is the only example I know of, of same-design models with non-constant quality issue that affected performance. (As opposed to say, Miraphone's experiments with different bell sizes on the 186 over the years, which would be a different-design issue as opposed to quality.)

[Three Valves]

Just to clear up confusion, the company is moving but not going under?

Rumors of their demise would appear premature

[Rick Denney]

In response to my "analysis", Bloke wrote:

Upon reunification, B&S was (basically) given (yes or no?) to an already well-funded/long-established manufacturer, and (yes or no?) post-unification, moving tooling from a higher-wages town/factory (with highly-skilled workers) to a lower-wages town/factory (with highly-skilled workers) "saved" B&S. Some products were, soon after, broomed, others were altered, and others were the result of combining designs of both factories (yes, or no?) Subsequently, B&S products (yes or no?) were promoted by a teacher/importer-organized army of American college teachers. Such a happily-ever-after scenario never happened (yes or no?) with Cerveny.

again: Am I misrepresenting history? I do not wish to post inaccuracies, and will be glad to delete this post, if shown to be inaccurate.

I'm trying to remember sequence, but it sure seemed to me that the Perantucci connection occurred before reunification, though perhaps after things were already opening up in Eastern Europe. Reunification was in 1991, but I sure seem to remember Perantucci ads that involved B&S instruments before than. (Perantoni and Tucci also worked with other manufacturers, so I may be misremembering the timeline. But I don't think so.)

It is certainly true that Gerhard Meinl bailed out the B&S factory in Markneukirchen after unification. A better way to describe it, perhaps, is that B&S was available at fire-sale prices and Meinl was astute enough to take advantage of it. In the same way, Günter Blümlein took advantage of reunification to invest, at very low prices, in the wristwatch industry in Glashütte, also in the former GDR. But Heinrich Manderman, who had acquired old-line West German Schneider Optical Company, bought the former VEB Pentacon after it had liquidated, which had occurred starting the day before reunification. I don't know if Meinl bought B&S as a going concern or after it had liquidated, but I believe it was the former, because we have examples of production through that period (including my F tuba, which was made in 1991). Yes, I expect they updated their tooling, but I don't believe they moved farther than between Markneukirchen and Klingenthal. If Meinl moved Melton-branded production to Markneukirchen, I don't know about it. But I don't think B&S has ever been anywhere but the vicinity of Markneukirchen and Klingenthal.

Before unification, however, all of eastern Europe was in dire straits, resulting from unsustainable production levels set by central planners for reasons unrelated to market demand. That said, I believe the B&S products were the quality products in the Second World, reserved for those privileged by talent or political influence, and for export (the Second World was hungry for western currencies when they could get them). Those with less talent, but still the ability to buy things, may have still bought B&S products under budget labels (Weltklang), or they bought lower-line brands, including Cerveny and (what we now call) St. Petersburg. Plus others that never had a presence in the west, before or after the collapse of the Soviet empire.

So, yes, Meinl and B&S improved each other, which should be the outcome of any merger. But lost was the hand-work that had once gone into B&S tubas, simply because the factory's goals included keeping a lot of people working (at very low pay) rather than seeking cost efficiency.

Rick "unification changed a lot of things, but was a spot on a continuum rather than a watershed" Denney

[Rick Denney]

"Thin" is not synonymous with "bad".

Claude Gordon model Benge trumpets weighed a scant 2 lbs.
They were not "bad"...at least, not to those who liked/bought them.

Many of the beloved-by-quite-a-few Gronitz tubas were/are (yes or no?) the same gauge of sheet metal as Cerveny tubas.

Slide alignment on both west and east German tubas isn't/wasn't necessarily any better (depending on the individual instrument, in my experience) than Cerveny.

Intonation of some of the most expensive German tubas is (well...) dubious at best.

The ONLY things (really...yes, or no?) that made/makes Cerveny seem not-as-good are...
> their linkage on their rotary instruments
> the fact that - if an owner/user doesn't exhibit the same amount of care/caution with their instrument as a typical bowed string player (where so-so quality instruments cost $20K), they will end up with tons of dents and creases

yes, or no?

Yes, from my perspective. My Cerveny was certainly a dent-magnet. I remember knocking on the bell with my knuckles once, for some (probably stupid) reason, and leaving a couple of impressions in the brass.

And, yes, mine had cheapie ball links designated by their U.S. importer, and I had to replace them. That was my first experiment with Du-Bro ball links, and I did that no later than 1985 or so.

And forget any application of nickel-silver or cosmetic decoration. There was none.

But the valves were light and fast, and the playing attributes of that tuba really pretty decent. I replaced it with a (used) Miraphone 186, which was better at some things, and which certainly had more value.

Rick "easy to be nostalgic, but it wasn't that good" Denney

[macbil]

I have the fondest memories of a big old Cerveny B flat I bought blind from Giardinelli's about 1978. It had a bell that had been rolled out and the bottom bow had work done to it to straighten it out. Plenty of dings. It had string linkage rotary valves which were pretty good. My best guess is that it was made in the early '60's. I did see one just like it featured on Tubenet a good few years ago as part of the sale of effects of a deceased pro tuba player with the comment by a friend who was organising it's sale , that it was a great player.
Light , my instrument was not and I can only surmise that it must have been built of a heavier gauge brass than recently, but oh boy , could it stand up and shout when it wanted to. It was not a shy instrument and was probably the only instrument I have ever played that shook in my hands and shook me physically, when I played it. It had tons of personality -- maybe that's a nice way of saying it was unruly and a bit of a beast. I hope this doesn't over romanticise the instrument , but it was a good 'un. I loved playing it and my brass playing friends shared my enthusiasm for it.
I wanted to take my playing in a different direction and traded it for a Meinl Weston CC 2145 . A good enough instrument but not very exciting after a big Cerveny.
Furtwangler said that the Berlin Symphony was his wife while the Vienna Phil was his mistress. It's a bit like that but on a much more modest scale. Same idea though!

[Polar Brass]

A small Cerveny update:
(Source: My sales contact at Amati- Denak s.r.o. - now run by the bankruptcy administrator/bank)

Regarding metal thickness:
As perhaps many of you have discovered, Cerveny tubas built in the last 10 - 15 years or so have a quite different metal as the ones from earlier on. Cerveny buys the brass from Germany and from the same sources as the German factories.

Production of Cerveny tubas prior to bankruptcy:
The workers at the Hradec Kralove factory mostly assembled tubas from parts made by the Amati factory in Kraslice. They also did production of some smaller parts. The finished instruments went to Kraslice for lacquering and was shipped to the customers from here.

What is going on in Kradec Kralove now:
The German wholesaler Arnold Stölzel GmbH of Wiesbaden bought the Josef Lidl brand, and the small work shop in Brno. They have now rented the Cerveny factory and its workforce in Hradec Kralove.
Here instruments are assembled and built under the Josef Lidl name. Some models carrying the Josef Lidl name are very similar to the Chinese made tubas of Stölzels´house name Arnold & Sons...

Can Cerveny tubas still be ordered:
Amati-Denak still sells Cerveny tubas. They have some models in stock. Non-stock instruments can be ordered, but lead times are very uncertain.
Amati-Denak owns the Brand name Cerveny, and together with the new administration in Hradec Kralove, they have agreed on exchanging parts and services in order
to be able to take new Cerveny orders. (This can change rapidly)

Amati-Denak is in contact with potential buyers, and the factory hopes that a new owner is presented in the fall of 2020.

[Three Valves]

Musicians Friend still expects them to ship 5-10-20

Looks as though that ship sailed. No longer available...