Where to buy an new F tuba -- and which one!

[Ferguson]

We have the Firebird, the 181 (6V), and the Gronitz piston F, the PF125, available for sale.

Steve Ferguson
www.hornguys.com

[Steve Inman]

Also, if your pockets are not so deep, talk with Matt at Dillon about the Cerveny 653-5. I've played the Firebird (Very nice horn), but for me the low range on the little Cerveny blows it away. Other experienced tuba players have played my horn and agree. If you're looking for solo, brass quintet, and non-huge orchestra F tuba, it would be a shame if you didn't check these little horns out. ESPECIALLY at this price point. Half the price of a firebird . . .

I used to own an early version of the 654 F, which I purchased from Lee Stofer -- it was labeled Amati / Harmonie, and was a hand-built (iirc) model for the Musikmesse -- identical to the current Cerveny 654-6, except for the brand label. THIS particular model did not have a low C as solid as the Firebird, but I'm certainly intrigued by the possibility that the 653 could have. Very intrigued! Thanks for posting your experience! Hmmmm .....

For reference:
http://www.amati.cz/english/production/ ... _Tubas.htm

[edit / add]: Where to shop? Dillon Music, Baltimore Brass, Custom Music, Tuba Dome, Woodwind & Brasswind, Hornguys -- those are the main ones I've heard of, and they've all been featured in this thread. There are a few others in the "Shops" section of Sean's site.

[jonesbrass]

I've not played the Harmonie version of the Cerveny F, but just visually, it appears that the Baby Arion (653) has a more open wrap. I've found the low C, B, Bb (and lower) is actually as easy to play (or easier) as most contrabass tubas are in this range. And the pedals speak all the way down to pedal Gb. All I have to worry about is making music.
YMMV, but I think the Cerveny CFB-653-5 is just about the best bang for the buck out there. If you're looking for an F, it would be a shame not to check one out.

[jonesbrass]

How does it sound in the pedal range? Nice and full like a good tuba should? Raucous but lovable like a bass trombone? Or sickly and weak like an alto horn or something?

Definitely nice and full, but you'll still sound like you, of course. If I push the volume, I get a nice "bite" that's typical of the German-style rotary tubas. You've got to try one for yourself.

[Allen]

Thanks a lot, guys! Every post has been helpful.

I'll let you know what happens.

Now, to some serious shopping...

Cheers,
Allen

[KevinMadden]

I'm surprised the MW 4xSLZ models were not mentioned at all in this thread. I was recently at Dillon's looking at F's and I had it down to the 45SLZ and the Firebird. I loved playing the Firebird i thought I sounded amazing on it. I liked the 45 also, just not quite as much. After talking with Matt about it, he tried a little experiment with the other tuba player who was in the shop looking at F's, we played the Firebird and the 45 (and 46) SLZ back to back listening up close and from across the room. The Firebird sounded great when you were over the person's shoulder. but when you stepped back it didn't really carry, the 45 sounded great from across the room. Also the intonation of the 45 is quite acceptable and its low range is pretty bangin'. thats my pick (and as soon as I get the loans, my new horn!)

[Bill Troiano]

Good for you, Kevin. You sounded great on your York too. See you back at IC.

[Allen]

I said I would report on my F tuba quest, and here it is.

After doing some tire kicking and trying out, I got some guys who play tuba for a living to help out. A road trip to Dillon was ordered up. Much trying out ensued. I concentrated on the key of F, but my biddies managed to try out every tuba (in every key), every large wall-hanger, and every tuboid object. Some quotes: "Ya gotta try this; it's the worst tuba I've ever blown." "Here, have a toot; see how a $20,000 tuba plays." And then Matt Walters let us try out a horn he was building for himself. It was a completely fabulous C frankentuba. But it wasn't for sale, and anyway I was fixated on F.

The winner? [I pretty much know this when I set out to Dillon.] A new Yamaha 822 F in silver plate. The best mouthpiece for it (and me with it) was a Yamaha Roger Bobo Solo (in gold). Unlike most F tubas, this one has a real low end. Not only was the C below the staff and easy and excellent note, so was the C an octave below; it just popped out! And, all the notes between. Up higher, it both sings and is agile. Completely unlike earlier versions of this tuba, the pitch is excellent. The only note really needing a slide manipulation is low G (3 ledger lines). 2345 is sharp, and 1345 is flat. 1345 with a first slide push is right on. I suppose if it had a 6th valve there would be more possibilities.

Now, I'm busy learning to drive this new acquisition. I'm catching on to F fingerings, but my fingers still try to do C fingerings sometimes. My few attempts to play from treble clef music (I can do it on a C tuba) convinced me to get bass clef under control first.

There's more to learning a new key tuba than the fingerings. I have to use air differently. And, although I can play every note in tune without much effort, I sometimes have trouble hitting every note in tune. Don't tell me; I know: practice, practice, practice!

I got the tuba about a week and a half before the NETEW workshop which I attended. I decided to use the new F tuba for everything except for where a contrabass tuba was required (the daily warm-up hour). Finally, two and a half weeks after getting the F, I did my solo recital piece (Six Little Tuba Pieces, by Gordon Jacob). Now, to get ready for quintet rehearsals in the Fall.

I'm enjoying the new horn very much. It has opened up a huge number of musical possibilities. Of course, it appears that there is no end to tuba acquisitions. My buddies are suggesting that now that I have a more specialized F horn, I might want a more specialized C tuba instead of the all-round one I have now. No, I'm not going to get another tuba. No. Not at all. Of course not......

Cheers,
Allen

[MartyNeilan]

I say ditch the C and play on the F only!!
...
I believe he plays a rotary Meinl Weston C tuba (I think the model 32-ish one?).

FWIW, there may be more than a little truth to Bob's first comment. The big Yamaha F plays and sounds like a "small 4/4"* CC, and may likely overlap the MW32 quite a bit tonally.

*When are they going to start sizing tubas in 1/8ths ??? My Weimar is really a 7/8 horn - plays way too big for a 3/4 but it is definitely not quite a full 4/4. And my new K2001 (yay me as of 2 this morning) is bigger than most 5/4's but just shy of a true 6/4 - making it a perfect 11/8.

(And some so-called 5/4 horns that have cropped up in the last few years really should be called 9/8 )

[Allen]

I say ditch the C and play on the F only!!
...
I believe he plays a rotary Meinl Weston C tuba (I think the model 32-ish one?).

FWIW, there may be more than a little truth to Bob's first comment. The big Yamaha F plays and sounds like a "small 4/4"* CC, and may likely overlap the MW32 quite a bit tonally.
<snip>...

An answer and some observations/opinions:

My C tuba is a MW 32, a very nice five rotary valve medium size (4/4) contrabass horn. It is easy to play in tune, and has a great tone. It also has the fastest and most confortable valves of any tuba I have ever tried. I got it to be an all-round tuba, and it works well in wind bands and in quintet, and also some traditional jazz. I'm very attached to it.

The Yamaha 822 F tuba I recently bought is indeed a large bass tuba, and musically can overlap a medium size contrabass tuba for some kinds of music. [I don't understand the logic of Yamaha calling it 4/4 size.] It is a more specialized instrument, with much more agility and ease of playing high than a contrabass tuba.

For the following remarks, please keep in mind that I am an amateur player, with limited practice time (I have a day job and a family). Therefore, I need all the help I can get from my equipment. For example I'm not going to play really high stuff on a contrabass tuba, as I find that it's too hard to control things and reliably hit the right notes. A bass tuba is much easier (for me) to play accurately up high.

Although the lowest notes I can play and the highest notes I can play are the same on both contrabass and bass tubas, the ease and the musical effect are quite different. Above a certain pitch (mostly related to bell size), a tuba stops being a resonator that gives the tuba sound we all love, and turns into a non-resonant megaphone, merely amplifying the buzz from the mouthpiece. Although I'm willing to listen to my mouthpiece buzz when I practice with mouthpiece alone, I don't want to hear that coming from a tuba. My non-tuba playing friends think the mouthpiece buzz sort of sound even top professionals have when they play really high sounds terrible. I guess only tubists like it. In my opinion, there is a real limit to the highest MUSICAL note that can be played on a given tuba. That note is relatively higher on a bass tuba, and can be higher on tubas with smaller bells.

On low notes, the difference between bass and contrabass tubas is the quality of sound. Down low, the contrabass will have a fatter, more foundational sound, comparared to the bass having a more rattling tone with no fundamental component at all. Musically sometimes we want one kind of tone, sometimes the other. Composers will use bassoon, bass clarinet, bass trombone or tuba for their contrasting bass tone colors. However for full ensemble support, they will use tubas (and double-bass viols).

To Bob1062: Bob, from your various posts I infer that you like the kind of tone a bass trombone or small bass tuba gets down low. No argument there; I like it too. However, I like that big, broad contrabass tuba sound even more down low. Best of all for me is to have a choice between those sounds. So, I'll keep playing a contrabass tuba as well as my new bass tuba.

Regarding Marty's remark about the overlap between my big Yamaha F and my medium MW C tubas, I think they do somewhat. If I didn't own any tubas and set out to buy two contrasting tubas, I would have picked the same bass tuba, but would have picked a bigger contrabass tuba. In fact, when I was at Dillon's my buddies were suggesting that I would start to want a bigger C tuba! However, after emptying my wallet to buy one tuba this Summer, I'm going to wait a bit before doing any more purchasing. I also would hate to get rid of my MW 32 tuba, as I like it so much. [Solution: Keep it, and just buy more tubas?!? What will I need to buy for my wife to compensate?] One of these days, I'll do something. [What? When? Stay tuned...]

Cheers,
Allen

[MartyNeilan]

Getting a third tuba gets my vote. You'll be glad you did.
Doc

Drag racers like to say, "There's no replacement for displacement."
The same largely holds true for tubas.
You can make a smaller tuba play loud and you can make a smaller tuba play low.
BUT
There is nothing like that Big Tuba Sound® (BTS)©

[Wyvern]

Drag racers like to say, "There's no replacement for displacement."
The same largely holds true for tubas.
You can make a smaller tuba play loud and you can make a smaller tuba play low.
BUT
There is nothing like that Big Tuba Sound® (BTS)©

How very true! Like so many British tuba players, I thought for years that because a Besson Eb can play low and loud, I had no need for a Big Tuba. However, since I have got my 6/4 Neptune, I am completely won over to that "Big Tuba Sound". So are the groups I play with and audience members from the number of favorable comments I receive.

[Allen]

Much trying out ensued. I concentrated on the key of F...
best mouthpiece for it (and me with it) was a Yamaha Roger Bobo Solo (in gold)...
Now, to get ready for quintet rehearsals in the Fall.

Allen, what else did you like?

And on a tangent, did Roger Bobo ever play the 822F or just the 621?

Boy, I wish I played in a quintet (been trying!)!

Actually, I didn't care too much for the (few) other F tubas I tried. It's a matter of personal taste. I didn't want a big euphonium, but I wanted a versatile bass (not contrabass) tuba. I was greatly influenced by advice from my teacher, who knew my playing and my musical goals.

I'm told that Roger Bobo did play the Yamaha 822 F tuba, and that the "Roger Bobo Solo" mouthpiece was developed by Yamaha and Bobo especially for the 822 F. By the way, that mouthpiece is an amazing fit for the tuba. Most mouthpieces seem to favor one part or another part of a tuba's range, and one usually has to make a compromise choice. The Bobo Solo mouthpiece seems not to be a compromise at all; it works extremely well from the highest to the lowest.

By the way, the Yamaha 822 F has done a lot of evolving. The earlier versions had terrible intonation. Some players had main tuning slide kickers installed to help cope. Yamaha seems to have worked steadily on the problem, and current production has excellent intonation. That was why I bought new (ouch!) instead of buying used.

Now, it's time to practice.

Cheers,
Allen