"cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

[Norm Pearson]

I still contend that the upside-down "L" contrabass valved instrument (with a large bore valveset) is a Self-Minick creation, and anything that approximated that shape that anyone made a hundred years ago was smaller than the smallest trombones made today.

The first large bore/bell throat contra that I am aware of is the Rudy Meinl CC. Jim's horn has a slender trombone style bell; the 1950's Mirafone BBb contra is not as large as the new model Miraphone contra. The Rudy CC cimbasso is BIG! Not quite a tuba on a stick but close. It also is fun to play in a really bad way: the easiest loudest most devastating low register of any brass instrument I have encountered. It is the preferred cimbasso of many of the Hollywood film composers and is treated as a percussion instrument. All loud, all low and all short all of the time. If someone really wants to know I'm sure the folks at Rudy Meinl would tell them where they got he inspiration to make such a beast.

The F cimbasso is a different story. It is simply this: a valved (contra) bass trombone in f (or Eb), period. Ether it sounds good in the context of the orchestration or it doesn't. Who cares. We can debate what this or that composer wanted all day long and never agree but what really matters at the end of the day is what sounds the best. Sometimes the tuba is too big and bass trombone is too small. In a modern symphony orchestra everything we do is a compromise unless we are in a period group playing period instruments (gut strings, wooden flutes etc..). Anton Bruckner never would have imagined a Fafner BBb let alone a Yorkophone CC and Verdi most likely never envisioned the modern Cimba$$o (oops). Last year Jim Self played the Petrushka Bear solo on his Fluba. He said it had the best sound on that solo of all of his instruments and the conductor liked it. A college buddy of mine has an Eb sousaphone that has a bullet proof Bydlo (Hmmm, gotta see if I can borrow that one). Play what works. There is even a legend of a southern tubaist who has been known to play a CC Sousaphone in a symphony orchestra on occasion. Blasphemy!

Norm

[Norm Pearson]

Where is a picture of Verdi next to his beloved cimbasso?

[Rick Denney]

I still contend that the upside-down "L" contrabass valved instrument (with a large bore valveset) is a Self-Minick creation, and anything that approximated that shape that anyone made a hundred years ago was smaller than the smallest trombones made today. Indeed, all of the instruments that Norm references (even one that was made in Germany) were circulating around southern California. I recall the first Rudolf Meinl brochure than included an upside-down L-shaped "cimbasso". That brochure came out well after Jim's (late 70's...?? early 80s'...??) Minick creation.

I've owned an Amati (straight - required being supported, if played for more than a few minutes) 4-valve key-of-F contrabass trombone. It was so wretched (comically stuffy - ' absolutely delighted when I found someone else who wanted to own it) whereas I could not imagine any of the modern-day tuba-playing "cimbasso" fans wanting anything to do with one.

Crap, Joe, you've already been shown an article that included a picture of a rotary valve trombone in the L shape that is not significantly different from Self's instrument than a Miraphone 1291 is from a Miraphone 186. If we say that trombone bore sizes have increased across the board, and that the whole piston/rotary thing is just a matter of preference, what other differences are there? F vs. Bb? Is that all that important on an instrument with such a narrow taper? (If so, horn players would never touch that switch valve.)

Bevan pictures Alan Lumsden playing an L-shaped three-valve rotary contrabass valve trombone that was made by Maino and Orsi in the late 1800's. Replace the rotary valves with piston valves, and enlarge the bore proportionately to the enlargement of the bore in the other trombones, and you'll have something very similar to Self's instrument. Bevan also pictures an instrument, made in the last couple of decades, that is shaped like a saxhorn but with a forward bell and a much narrower overall taper. It does have a loop over the shoulder, which serves to provide a straight bell stack pointed due forward (evoking in me thoughts of high-compression trumpet pipes on organs). It has four top-action piston valves. It is no more like a tuba than a Barcone toy sousaphone is like a 20K, even if it does have the same overall shape (except for that backward pointing loop). The Italian who owned it, Stephano Ammannati, calls it a modern cimbasso, but it bears little resemblance (other than in taper) to Self's instrument. But it's still no more different than Self's instrument than a Besson tuba is from a Miraphone tuba.

Thus, the L-shaped piston instrument with a trombonish taper (I will steadfastly avoid the use of "cylindrical" and "conical", believing that those are used to foment confusion not clarity) has been one of several variations on an instrument that has existed for over a hundred years at least.

But Bevan also reported the work of Perry, who has discovered the remains of what he called an "early cimbasso". It's bassoon-shaped with a cup mouthpiece, bottom wooden crook (like a bassoon), tone holes, and an upward-pointing bell, similar to the old English Bass Horn. It is only speculative whether that was the image floating in Verdi's mind.

With some scholarship to back him up, Bevan describes all of these under the general heading "cimbasso".

It could also be that Verdi didn't have a particular instrument in mind, and just used a word that didn't lock things down too much, but that still distinguished it from a bass tuba.

Rick "who might give Self and Minick credit for a nice variation of the species, but not for its creation" Denney

[UDELBR]

It's plausible to me that Verdi may have preferred the "cimbasso" (oficleide?) over the tuba

There's little leeway here, as Verdi was quite specific in his choice.

Methinks Joe's becoming a cimbasso 'grassy-knoll truther'.

[UDELBR]

I will steadfastly avoid the use of "cylindrical" and "conical", believing that those are used to foment confusion not clarity

Huh? They demarcate specific instrument families, with specific acoustic qualities, both aurally and scientifically.

[tbn.al]

Methinks Joe's becoming a cimbasso 'grassy-knoll truther'.

Methinks you have to understand the underlying, but not very far, intent of the OP.

5704 "ad infinitum" ...............................but you'll never catch Ray

[Donn]

I will steadfastly avoid the use of "cylindrical" and "conical", believing that those are used to foment confusion not clarity

Huh? They demarcate specific instrument families, with specific acoustic qualities, both aurally and scientifically.

Sure, and that works out fine among people who are having a genuine conversation. But if one party to a conversation is intent on dragging it around in circles, then it becomes tediously important how long the strictly cylindrical part is, and so forth. So if we understand `cylindrical' and `trombonish' to be synonymous, the latter could be a better choice.

[Bob Kolada]

If the point is to ignore those old Italian bent cimbassi, then we had better make dahm sure to ignore those old tubas!

[sloan]

5704 "ad infinitum"

pffft. "views" are meaningless. Only "posts" count.

[Lingon]

...Where is the photograph or instrument...

You are right. We have Verdi's will about the matter as quoted a couple of times. Other than that we have our ears that says it will sound nicer with a section of four instruments with family ties than three plus one other. It would be interesting to see a picture of the orchestra at least from when they did perform Nabucco for the first time, or to talk with one of the cimbassisti from that time. A propos, were the digital cameras really in use then?

[Rick Denney]

Nabucco ("cimbasso") was composed in 1836 - not in the "late 1800's".

Unrelated to your troll-claim that Self/Minick created the first one, and that those who use instruments that from any distance look like the one Self/Minick created have no claim to history earlier than when Self/Minick created it.

Rick "challenging your troll, not the definition of 'cimbasso'" Denney

[sousaphone68]

A bit off topic as this is not Verdi, but in the following clip a '
modern' cimbasso is playing the lowest part in a four piece trombone section a la Verdi performing a 'modern' Beethoven.

I had been avoiding this thread but this video made reading it worthwhile

[Wyvern]

I think about time for this thread to be lightened up by one of the sights at ITEC (Linz) this week!

On serious note, Alessandro Fossi gave excellent talk/demonstration of the cimbasso at ITEC. As he regularly contributes to this forum I hope he will share his extensive knowledge of the cimbasso here, but my understanding from his talk is that the 'modern' cimbasso is the most appropriate for later Verdi, but a travel tuba (he owns a MW 14) actually works better for earlier operas

BTW The lady plays BBb tuba

[Chuck Jackson]

Does the lady make the cimbasso sound like a Verdi-era cimbasso?

I certainly hope so, because she is sporting some VERY Non-Verdi era clothing. Not that I mind, but for the love of all things Bass Clef, can't we AT LEAST have them dress right?

But then again, she is sporting some togs that would fit right in with the concept of a 1980's West Coast Cimbasso Conspiracy, sans the big hair and heavy make-up.

Oh, I just noticed there was a curved, odd looking instrument in the picture.

Chuck

[Steve Marcus]

Here's another cimbasso that might look better than the one that Alan Baer played...for the same reason.

cimbasso2.jpg

[Lingon]

...

A bit off topic as this is not Verdi, but in the following clip a '
modern' cimbasso is playing the lowest part in a four piece trombone section a la Verdi performing a 'modern' Beethoven.

I had been avoiding this thread but this video made reading it worthwhile...

That orchestra uses the cimbasso, to have a four piece trombone section. It is effective and sounds like a section. I doubt the result had been the same with a tuba, of course nice but from another perspective, even if trying to sound near the other instruments. So a Verdi section in modern ways?! There is also a youtube clip with a salsaed Carmen from the same concert for those that would like to get a slightly more operatic picture.

...but my understanding from his talk is that the 'modern' cimbasso is the most appropriate for later Verdi, but a travel tuba (he owns a MW 14) actually works better for earlier operas...

Interesting. That corresponds well with what is learnt by reading all the pages of this thread in that there was things happening for the last works. So, some sort of Bubbie together with a modern cimbasso would be even more useful than only the latter to have in the tool box.

Here's another cimbasso that might look better than the one that Alan Baer played...for the same reason.

Really nice bell braces.

[imperialbari]

They are not King stays. Maybe Sting Kays or even stingrays.

[quesonegro]

I think this is both interesting and hilarious, I must say. 29 pages, wow!
I have no vested interest either way but it seems to me that on a practical level the modern cimbasso has become the industry standard, like it or not. To argue its authenticity may be an interesting exercise but, considering how the sound of the rest of the brass section has changed since Verdi's days, maybe a moot one.
In my mind the musical aspects weigh heavier than the historical ones,
and that said, in spite of the nature of Internet forums leveling the playing ground as far as the possibility for all of us to express our opinions, the use of the modern cimbasso does have a crowd of pretty heavy hitters on its team. Experience does not make "truth" alone, but when Messieurs Self, Bobo, Fossi etc weighs in on one side I do think there's a point to listen and think about it...

Just a thought...

Respectfully,

Mattis

[sloan]

One wonders what the traffic on SerpeNet would have been like in the mid-1800's...

[quesonegro]

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