"cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

[Biggs]

The problem as I see it is that now, anyone auditioning for an opera gig has to have yet another instrument. I'm not trying to be nosy about pay, but does the Met, f'rinstance, consider cimbasso a double? How about any other company in the US? How about European companies??

jest wonderin'

I'm comically far-removed from any sort of high-end audition circuit, but I recall (with about 95% confidence in this particular memory) that the Chicago Lyric Opera required cimbasso in their most recent audition (per their excerpts list) and was willing to grant auditioners the use of the Eb cimbasso owned by the company if they so chose. Someone closer to the situation (the winner, perhaps!) could probably give more complete and more accurate commentary about this and other similar instances.

[emcallaway]

I believe that the real point of discussion that everyone is really dancing around here is whether Verdi preferred his cimbassi in lacquer, raw brass, or silver plate.

[quesonegro]

Silver plated, always silver plated!!

[imperialbari]

Yes, please! Always on a silver plate!

[pjv]

The only reason I own a cimbasso is because my tuba hates Verdi.

[J.c. Sherman]

The problem as I see it is that now, anyone auditioning for an opera gig has to have yet another instrument. I'm not trying to be nosy about pay, but does the Met, f'rinstance, consider cimbasso a double? How about any other company in the US? How about European companies??

jest wonderin'

I'm comically far-removed from any sort of high-end audition circuit, but I recall (with about 95% confidence in this particular memory) that the Chicago Lyric Opera required cimbasso in their most recent audition (per their excerpts list) and was willing to grant auditioners the use of the Eb cimbasso owned by the company if they so chose. Someone closer to the situation (the winner, perhaps!) could probably give more complete and more accurate commentary about this and other similar instances.

Correct; the cimbasso was not used in the first round, however.

The video shows a very typical (non-hodge-podge) Italian-style instrument.

We do know what Verdi accepted and sanctioned. It was manufactured by Pelitti and is well documented and often copied. Modern instruments show a variety of layouts, similar to the wide variety of trombones.

An "extended Baritone" would differ from a contrabass valve trombone in the overall bore profile and in the bore, receiver, and mouthpiece used. It would be a very, very different sound!

J.c.S.

[bisontuba]

Not 1870 but 1890-1900? On ebay...FYI...Mark

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380974078669?ss ... 1423.l2649" target="_blank

[J.c. Sherman]

?!? It's just a valve trombone... there're many which would play much better.

[pjv]

I've always assumed that the idea behind the modern cimbasso is that it IS meant to be a valved trombone in F. (the "l"-form is a practicality, right?).
That it's larger is logical being that all brass instruments have become, like their owners, fatter.

Yes, many of the mid 20th Century revival cimbassi were designed to be press & played by tuba players and many of these are obese (the cimbassi).

We're now in the 21st century and bigger is not necessarily better. Hopefully time and taste will weed out which designs produce a sound that's effective for our needs.

Regardless of what one wants to hear or play, the cimbasso is here to stay. As players we might use a smaller tuba in the studio then we would for a Bruckner symphony. It's logical to assume that a player may want a steroid cimbasso by a modern work or a studio gig but choose for a smaller bore cimbasso when playing Verdi.

Right now, we are the ones making the rules. I say lets give the cimbassophiles their civil rights and kill this troll once and for all.

[PaulMaybery]

[J.c. Sherman]

The modern nomenclature is, like "Baritone", and unavoidable convenience for an instrument we've come to use for playing parts marked "Cimbasso". Hans Kunitz started this problem, even though the Italians still had the term "trombone contrabasso Verdi" or "Tuba Verdi" for the same instrument... in fact, Respighi used "contrabass trombone", and "trombone basso" was also used by cimbasso. Kunitz and his model manufactured with a slide by Alexander began the "confussion", which has long since been resolved. As everyone from Verdi to Bevan has urged the use of the valved contrabass trombone for cimbasso parts, the name has become a shorthand of convenience.

I could make the same argument, and have to swallow hard on "Contra ALTO" clarinet, which is clearly a contrabass (and the Bb is a double or subcontra bass). But we live with the more common shorthand. You're not wrong, Bloke, but your effort would prove fruitless, I think.

J.c.S.

[imperialbari]

Too much grande madeira?

[J.c. Sherman]

3...

[PaulMaybery]

"Terminology" vs "Organology." The bain of the musicologist. So what then is "The Point"? Or should we as tubaist just order a "Pint" and be done with it?

Verdi eventually got what he wanted. So should we. Pilsner Urquel for starters for me or how 'bout a jug of Carlo Ross "Paisano." Goes down well before, during, after or even without dinner.

I think if Verdi had heard a certain Eb Besson recording bell in the pit, non of this would even be spoken of today.

[Steve Marcus]

We're now in the 21st century and bigger is not necessarily better. Hopefully time and taste will weed out which designs produce a sound that's effective for our needs.

Regardless of what one wants to hear or play, the cimbasso is here to stay. As players we might use a smaller tuba in the studio then we would for a Bruckner symphony. It's logical to assume that a player may want a steroid cimbasso by a modern work or a studio gig but choose for a smaller bore cimbasso when playing Verdi.

Right now, we are the ones making the rules. I say lets give the cimbassophiles their civil rights and kill this troll once and for all.

Beyond the historical and musicological consideration, playing cimbasso can actually be enjoyable. Just ask Beth Mitchell and others who have made cimbasso part of their arsenals.

[The Big Ben]

All those old instruments are irrelevant. This is like the thread on bringing back the ophicleide into the modern orchestra - there's a reason why we don't see old designs used regularly... Hence why bloke probably won't find a photograph like the picture posted.

I blame the 1960-80s generations for all the loud music and louder music that has caused the older instruments, like the ophicleide, to be replaced by louder versions to accommodate for the new generation of people with hearing problems...

"It's all those damn hippies..."

[timothy42b]

I can't remember if this guy posts on this forum or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M38qRaNloBQ" target="_blank

I haven't heard too many contras, I thought this was an interesting sound.

I knew I'd dragged my kids to too many concerts when I heard one of them humming the overture to Nabucco on the playground.

[hup_d_dup]

. . . so many tuba players insist on labeling a contrabass valve trombone a "cimbasso" . . . |

No more weird names or crazy shapes. Build it in the shape of an Eb tuba and call it a Bass Trombonium.

(OK maybe that's a slightly odd name too, but it does have historical precedent AND it is accurately descriptive)

Hup

[UDELBR]

Build it in the shape of an Eb tuba and call it a Bass Trombonium.

(OK maybe that's a slightly odd name too, but it does have historical precedent AND it is accurately descriptive)

Hup

Maybe I'm not getting the joke. A tuba is a conical instrument, and a trombone of any sort is a cylindrical instrument. Different bore profile, thus, not "accurately descriptive".

[hup_d_dup]

Maybe I'm not getting the joke. A tuba is a conical instrument, and a trombone of any sort is a cylindrical instrument. Different bore profile, thus, not "accurately descriptive".

By "shape" I mean "wrap," like a euphonium wrap. A cimbasso has a cylindrical bore. Make a cylindrical bore instrument with the wrap of an Eb tuba. Call it a bass trombonium (You certainly wouldn't call it a tuba).

This isn't my idea . . . it's already been done . . . but the instruments are usually called "cimbassos" even though they are not in the shape (that is to say, wrap) of a cimbasso.

Hup