What is it about brass players?

[windshieldbug]

I can color the body black and leave the gold lacquer on the keys... As the Barkays toured Europe extensively in the early 1980's, Keilwerth of Germany came out with the very first manufactured black saxophone with gold keys...and the rest (as they say) is history

So what you're sayin'... is that this is your fault!



(Photo of Tuba Exchange display with colored St. Pete's)

[MartyNeilan]

...and those "hands" are not always those of professional players (who sometimes tend to alter and trash "classics")...

Yeah like that Carroll Shelby guy who knew how to completely screw up a perfectly good British roadster or butcher those Mustangs. I hear his hack work is worth next to nothing now.

[Joe Baker]

I get your point, harold, and I think we agree more than this discussion would let on. But I also think that a LOT of horns aren't the stuff of restorations; they are commodities. Take a Miraphone 186. There are zillions of these around -- enough that, even if they ever DO quit making them, there will be plenty of parts available for a LONG . Now, suppose I've got one, and I decide I want to... oh, let's say I want to add a slide kicker. It may look like hell to you, but it works. What have I really done to the horn? I've soldered a mechanism to some slide tubing and a slide crook. All reversible, and in the worst case the parts are replaceable.

But even to take an example more like yours: let's say I've got a turn-of-the-(20th)-century York, and there's a hole in the leadpipe. If I could afford to (money and time without my horn) I'd take it to a great repairman like bloke, who has done some fabulous work on my trombone. But suppose I can't afford it, or can't do without the horn. I go down to Lowe's, find some sort of sheet brass, cut a suitable sized piece, form it to the shape of the tubing, and (sloppily) solder it in place, well enough that the horn plays satisfactorily. Five years later, I sell it to you. You can see that the leadpipe has an ugly patch (and if it wasn't visible, I'd make sure you know about it). So you decide to have it fixed right. You take it to whomever, they remove the patch I put on, and there's the hole I was dealing with five years earlier. It matters to you, so you pay to have Oberloh -- whose pictures reveal to be extraordinary and somewhat obsessive about perfection -- patch it by cutting out the bad spot, brazing in a perfectly matched piece of brass, blah, blah, blah. You wind up with the same quality of repair as if I had hired him to do it. The only difference is that YOU paid for it -- which is appropriate, since it is YOU that place that kind of value on the horn being repaired to look like new.

I do understand, mind you. I'm that way with my '66 Mustang. I don't want things patched with Bondo and painted over, or rust holes in the floor pans cut out and covered with patches; I want them repaired RIGHT. Nor do I want digital dials and fuel injection; I want it to be like it was when it was new, AM radio, no A/C -- like new. It matters to me. But I'd never criticize someone else for going with the cheaper option, or for modernizing their car in some way that I'd not want; instead, I'd be glad to see them appreciate the car the best way they can, and be glad that it's not just gathering rust in a junk yard somewhere.

Oh, and on my '66 Stang: I do my own engine work, even though I'm NOT a professional mechanic, and have never received ANY training other than reading a Chilton's manual. Here's my Mustang engine, just completed a couple of weeks ago; what do you think?


____________________________
Joe Baker, who thinks we aren't SO far apart....

[windshieldbug]

... those headers look unacceptable on an engine like that! You should be ashamed!

[Joe Baker]

... those headers look unacceptable on an engine like that! You should be ashamed!

Well, for starters that's the stock exhaust manifold. New from the factory, it was unpainted; so it's unpainted on my car. I HAVE toyed with sacrificing originality in one of two ways: either by replacing the exhaust manifold WITH headers, or pulling it off and baking on an ultra-high-temp black paint job. I don't want to do that, though, until I've decided about the headers, and THAT is somewhere down the list AFTER replacing the seats, carpet and dash pad, and probably after some suspension work (at a minimum: new springs fore & leafs and shackles aft). Doing it all myself, (except POSSIBLY the front springs), so it'll be awhile before I get there.
______________________________
Joe Baker, who will probably replace the interior in the next month or so, then leave it alone and just ENJOY driving in the mountains for a month or two.

[Dean E]

* * * Besides, I own not one but FIVE vehicles. So the choice isn't $8 or $20; it's $40 or $100. I can change the oil in all five, drive to the parts store to dispose of the oil, get home, and shower in about 2 hours. Considering I don't get paid for overtime, $60 (and remember, saved money is tax-free!) is a pretty respectable return on 2 hours work (not to mention it takes me longer than that to drive 5 vehicles, one at a time, to Jiffy-Lube and wait for them to change the oil).

As Garrison Keillor noted: "The tuba player is normally a stocky, bearded guy whose hobby is plumbing. The only member of the orchestra who bowls over 250 and gets his deer every year and changes his own oil." http://www.harrogate.co.uk/harrogate-band/humour40.htm

I finished a four-year machinist apprenticeship after high school, and I have worked on my own cars (drag raced in the 1/8 and 1/4 mile in the '60s), motorcycles, and homes for forty years. For me, activities, such as making *bay tubas playable and decent looking, as well as refinishing furniture and doing yard work and gardening, are always mentally and emotionally satisfying.

Satisfaction is a good thing. I am confident that many tuba hobbyists and pros have stories in the vein of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," from which I offer an illustrative quote:

"Not everyone understands what a completely rational process this is, this maintenance of a motorcycle. They think it's some kind of a "knack" or some kind of "affinity for machines" in operation. They are right, but the knack is almost purely a process of reason, and most of the troubles are caused by what old time radio men called a "short between the earphones," failures to use the head properly. A motorcycle functions entirely in accordance with the laws of reason, and a study of the art of motorcycle maintenance is really a miniature study of the art of rationality itself.
* * *
An untrained observer will see only physical labor and often get the idea that physical labor is mainly what the mechanic does. Actually the physical labor is the smallest and easiest part of what the mechanic does. By far the greatest part of his work is careful observation and precise thinking. That is why mechanics sometimes seem so taciturn and withdrawn when performing tests. They don't like it when you talk to them because they are concentrating on mental images, hierarchies, and not really looking at you or the physical motorcycle at all. They are using the experiment as part of a program to expand their hierarchy of knowledge of the faulty motorcycle and compare it to the correct hierarchy in their mind. They are looking at underlying form." http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/Qualit ... part2.html

[UDELBR]

I'm just suggesting that if you are going to have alterations that you may want to consider getting some professional help.

You seem pretty well outnumbered, harold. But I'll defend to the death your right to rant.

A more appropriate target for your rant though, might be a very well known tuba modifier, who's well known for taking classic American tubas (Holton, Martin, York) in BBb, and trimming them down to CC. How does he do this? By snipping off several inches of the large end of each bow, and telescoping it inside the next bow. I kid you not. Now that's the way to permanently ruin a great instrument.

If anyone's deserving of a fatwah, it's him.

[Tom Holtz]

A more appropriate target for your rant though, might be a very well known tuba modifier, who's well known for taking classic American tubas (Holton, Martin, York) in BBb, and trimming them down to CC. How does he do this? By snipping off several inches of the large end of each bow, and telescoping it inside the next bow. I kid you not. Now that's the way to permanently ruin a great instrument

I've told a few Martin BBb owners around here that if I find out they've let someone build a CC out of their tuba, I'll hunt them down like dogs.

[Rick Denney]

Here's my Mustang engine, just completed a couple of weeks ago; what do you think?

The blue is just ever-so-slightly too light to be Ford Blue. You should have rested your spray bottle in cat urine for 6.5 minutes, and then sprayed the engine using a compressor with a hose and 54.5-degree water running over it.

And can you prove that the engine number matches the production of the body?

Of course, there is no limit to the snobbishness of originality freaks, and many define themselves by how much they can one-up the other originality freaks in their group. The point is--we each set our own standards for ourselves, and that should be our satisfaction.

I'm modernizing my classic GMC motorhome considerably as I renovate it. It was already too modified to make it work restoring to original condition, but also I use it and want to be comfortable in it. And that 70's decor brings back nightmares. When I redo the engine, I won't care what it looks like, but if it's still running much more than six digits on the odometer later, I'll be happy.

Rick "whose hacksaw project will not be subjected to anyone else" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

I've told a few Martin BBb owners around here that if I find out they've let someone build a CC out of their tuba, I'll hunt them down like dogs.

I wonder if tuba players minds aren't warped by their playing. To wit, why is it that manufacturers don't think it's worthwhile to manufacture along the old designs? Geez, it's only sheet metal. Any manufacturer can spec just about any exotic alloy if they're willing to buy a lot of it. As for the rest, we're basically talking late 19th century technology, not rocket science.

The reason that big Martins and Yorks aren't made any more is because there's insufficient demand for them.

I have a similar issue with vintage computer collectors. There are those who insist on doing recreations of the old personal systems by purchasing authentic parts (sometimes at a huge premium) and assembling replicas. An Apple I recreation (basically a PC board full of ICs, no case nor monitor, sold for over $2000 on *Bay recently. When I scrap a bunch of old engineering prototype PCBs for components, there's always someone slamming me because I didn't try to "preserve" them. If they were so wonderful, they wouldn't have been scrapped in the first place. Today you could implement the whole design in a corner of an FPGA.

[Joe Baker]

Here's my Mustang engine, just completed a couple of weeks ago; what do you think?

The blue is just ever-so-slightly too light to be Ford Blue. You should have rested your spray bottle in cat urine for 6.5 minutes, and then sprayed the engine using a compressor with a hose and 54.5-degree water running over it.

Naturally, I did all that. Sheesh. The problem is OBVIOUSLY your monitor; when was the last time you had that POS calibrated?!? AHA!!! Just as I thought .

And can you prove that the engine number matches the production of the body?

Oh, yeah! Original engine, numbers are on it. Affadavits from Mother-In-Law, wife of ONLY previous owner, available if needed.

But that won't be necessary, as I don't intend to EVER sell this car. My Father-In-Law bought it new in 1966, and (in addition to being, other than a few minor cosmetic problems, in SPECTACULAR and original RUST FREE condition) it is a family heirloom.

And oh, SO nice to drive around!
________________________________
Joe Baker, who must also point out to Rick, the Aggie: it's BURNT ORANGE ("Emberglow", they called it)!

[Rick Denney]

Joe Baker, who must also point out to Rick, the Aggie: it's BURNT ORANGE ("Emberglow", they called it)!

Well, there's no accounting for taste.

Rick "not backing up that statement with his 'sky blue' motorhome, which fairly screams for the addition of giant hippie flowers" Denney

[TubaRay]

Rick "not backing up that statement with his 'sky blue' motorhome, which fairly screams for the addition of giant hippie flowers" Denney

I certainly hope you aren't listening to those screams. Ugh!

[Rick Denney]

Rick "not backing up that statement with his 'sky blue' motorhome, which fairly screams for the addition of giant hippie flowers" Denney

I certainly hope you aren't listening to those screams. Ugh!

As well as you know me, Ray, you would be concerned that I listen to screams? Hmmm?

Rick "who listens to the voices" Denney

[tofu]

There is a fashionable statement that you hear way too much about "thinking outside the box". You know a saying is dead when big corporations start advertising it.

But thinking outside the box is where the great innovations come from and this is usually done by non-pro tinkers. For example you had lots of big computer companies back in the 70's - IBM, GE, Honeywell, Sperry Univac, Burroughs, NCR etc. and they all made large mainframes. Did these guys come up with the personal computer - NO!

It was young guys like Steve Jobs and his partner tinkering in their parents garage. It seems to me that the tuba has really changed very little in the last 100 years plus because the companies that make them simply refine what they or others already have done. Look at all the present day makers building new York look-a-likes. Their goal is recreate not innovate. They aren't thinking outside the box because it is hard for the entrenched to take a risk and create something truly new. Much safer to recreate than to innovate and come up with a new way that maybe is quantum leaps better than a recreation which is at best maybe slightly better.

In the end that is why even if thousands of tinkerers fail maybe somebody else will have that ultimate breakthrough and I bet that has a better chance coming from a non-pro experimenting with a novel idea than some pro doing what he knows is tried and true and has always done. That is why the tinkerers should be encouraged not discouraged from trying just because somebody fears losing something valuable.

It would be far worse to lose what could be then to lose what is.

[quinterbourne]

Harold, if one of your major concerns is keeping repairmen in business, and promoting excellence in the repair field... then people improvising their own repairs may not be such a bad thing.

I am sure a lot of the work these repairmen get are fixing home repairs gone bad. You know, fathers trying to remove Johnny's trumpet mouthpiece. Some highschool kid trying to solder on their tuba. A lot of these do-it-yourself repairs you speak of do end badly (for the instrument owner) and keep the professional repairmen in business.

Heck, you should encourage home repairs... many professional repairmen rely on it!

[Joe Baker]

... screams for the addition of giant hippie flowers...

I certainly hope you aren't listening to those screams. Ugh!

... Ray, you would be concerned that I listen to screams? Hmmm?...

Say, y'know who REALLY likes screams?

Bloke!

http://www.tasteebros.com

*snort*

______________________________
Joe Baker, who has probably put up more posts today than in any day since first finding TubeNet, some six or seven years ago (without really saying much of anything)!

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

I would expect that not only was this not his main point, but that he was factoring in the value of his time.

otoh, one of the fortunate things for quite a few tuba players in his region is the fact that (imo) their favorite tech doesn't seem to do this very thing.

Bloke,

I am not sure what you meant by this post. Could you please clarify?

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
www.oberloh.com

[iiipopes]

There is a fashionable statement that you hear way too much about "thinking outside the box". You know a saying is dead when big corporations start advertising it.

But thinking outside the box is where the great innovations come from and this is usually done by non-pro tinkers. For example you had lots of big computer companies back in the 70's - IBM, GE, Honeywell, Sperry Univac, Burroughs, NCR etc. and they all made large mainframes. Did these guys come up with the personal computer - NO!

It was young guys like Steve Jobs and his partner tinkering in their parents garage. It seems to me that the tuba has really changed very little in the last 100 years plus because the companies that make them simply refine what they or others already have done. Look at all the present day makers building new York look-a-likes. Their goal is recreate not innovate. They aren't thinking outside the box because it is hard for the entrenched to take a risk and create something truly new. Much safer to recreate than to innovate and come up with a new way that maybe is quantum leaps better than a recreation which is at best maybe slightly better.

In the end that is why even if thousands of tinkerers fail maybe somebody else will have that ultimate breakthrough and I bet that has a better chance coming from a non-pro experimenting with a novel idea than some pro doing what he knows is tried and true and has always done. That is why the tinkerers should be encouraged not discouraged from trying just because somebody fears losing something valuable.

It would be far worse to lose what could be then to lose what is.

"Where a thousand failures wouldn't matter, one success could change the course of destiny." - Arthur C. Clarke, 2001 A Space Odessey, in part I where the "boxes" first come to planet earth to see if there is any hope for higher development of the planet.

[windshieldbug]

There is a fashionable statement that you hear way too much about "thinking outside the box".

It just means occasionally thinking while you're hooking up the 'sky blue' motorhome...