F and CC in Brass Band

[windshieldbug]

Evolution vs. Intelligent Design...

Do I sound the way I sound because I play CC
- or -
Do I play CC because of the way I want to sound?

[Rick Denney]

There are a fair number of band directors in the band who have had their fill of contests, including the band's own director, who got his quota teaching band in Texas.

I'm glad to hear it.

To me, the sound is everything. I scarcely pay attention to what's visually happening onstage.

I didn't give any importance to the visual aspects or even mention them. I mentioned sound and emotional expression that cannot be recorded. I have never had tears well up listening to a CD, however inspired, but it has happened at live concerts. Something important is missing from CD's. But that something is not technical perfection.

Here's a stick of my own to poke and see what twitches. One of the big differences between concert (symphonic) band music and brass band music is that much concert band music was intended to be performed out-of-doors and most brass band music is intended to be performed indoors.

What do you think?

I think it's not true of most band music. Old marches, perhaps. But most of the good transcriptions and original works for band were either written for the military bands, for professional bands of the past, or for school bands. Most of those applications are indoors.

I agree with Bloke that much wind-band music lacks the sparkle of a wide tonal palette available in an orchestra. But I think it's the composing more than the instrumentation, because I have heard transcriptions and original works that had that sparkle (Hindsley's arrangements come to mind as a positive example; Reed's come to mind as being the more typical mezzo-mezzo sound). I haven't listened to enough brass band music to know how it fares in that scheme, but I suspect it's a more difficult challenge for composers.

From what I've heard about Texas school band competitions, I suppose I don't blame you one bit.

But it wasn't just that experience, and when I was there it wasn't nearly as bad as it is now. A couple of the bands I've been in had tuba sections where other players are so intent on competing that they constantly measure themselves within the section on the basis of technical precision, and completely forget that the purpose is to support the musical whole. That takes the reason for being there right out of it, at least for me.

Rick "for whom tuba playing is the antidote to natural competitiveness, not an expression of it" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

I think it's not true of most band music. Old marches, perhaps. But most of the good transcriptions and original works for band were either written for the military bands..

Military bands do most of their playing indoors? I thought the primary reason for military bands was for playing on the parade grounds, and at funerals and other ceremonies. What person in their right mind would create a huge band of some of the loudest wind instruments available for playing indoors?

, for professional bands of the past..

As in playing concerts in the park?

When I look at the LOC archives of 19th and early 20th century band photos, almost all are out of doors. OTOH, chamnber groups, dance and stage bands and orchestras are all taken indoors.

or for school bands.

Most school bands exist to play on the sports field. Many schools require concert band students to also do their hitch in the marching band. All of which leads to the wonderful dynamic control that US concert bands are known for--and probably is a factor in the impaired hearing of many retired middle- and high-school band directors.

About the only place I'll listen to a concert band is out-of-doors or from a CD or if I'm playing in one where I'm safely out of the line of fire of most of the louder instruments. (Although one year I recall sitting next to the bari sax player) Heaven knows, if I played flute or oboe, there's no way I'd play in a concert band without earplugs.

Stage and dance bands, whose application is primarily indoors, tend to be much smaller than the average concert band. Even a brass band, which boasts plenty of volume, has only 25 (or so, depending on percussion) players.

A bit off-topic, but does anyone else note that a lot of the brass band works being played nowadays sound more like they belong on a football field? Rhythmically complex with heavy percussion requirements, but somehow unsatisfying musically. Our band played Curnow's "River City Suite" last season, and it reminded me of something that I'd hear at a DCI competition.

Maybe I'm just getting old...

[Tubainsauga]

A bit off-topic, but does anyone else note that a lot of the brass band works being played nowadays sound more like they belong on a football field? Rhythmically complex with heavy percussion requirements, but somehow unsatisfying musically.

I would tend to agree with you, though there are also a lot of wonderful pieces being written. I'm lucky in that I get to listen to the Hannaford Street Silver Band a lot. They have a lot of very interesting and quite moving pieces written for them in addition to being one of the finest brass bands in North America. Oh, the BBb tubists use CCs, btw.

[Rick Denney]

Military bands do most of their playing indoors? I thought the primary reason for military bands was for playing on the parade grounds, and at funerals and other ceremonies.

If you'll read carefully, you'll note that I didn't say those three areas that motivate composition were all indoors. But I think you'll have to acknowledge that in each of those three areas, most of the performances are indoors. When a military band plays on the parade grounds, it does not play a Hindsley arrangement. It usually plays a Sousa or Fillmore march. I suspect the same is true for brass bands.

Most school bands exist to play on the sports field. Many schools require concert band students to also do their hitch in the marching band.

Some do, some don't. Usually, the boundary between the two doesn't line up with academic periods so it's a moot point.

But relatively little music is composed for outdoor performance, and it is specifically composed for that venue. You won't find high-school bands playing Toccata Marziale or the Holst Second Suite during a half-time show.

About the only place I'll listen to a concert band is out-of-doors or from a CD or if I'm playing in one where I'm safely out of the line of fire of most of the louder instruments. (Although one year I recall sitting next to the bari sax player) Heaven knows, if I played flute or oboe, there's no way I'd play in a concert band without earplugs.

You've obviously never played in a rock band. Plenty of people put themselves into the line of fire of 120 dB--far louder than any wind band even up close.

I've been in community and school bands for the last 35 years, and I'll bet that I've participated in 5 indoor performances for every outdoor performance of a full concert band. I've played outdoors with smaller ensembles FAR more often. And the repertoire for those relatively few outdoor gigs was specially composed for outdoor gigs and unlike the majority of what is available for wind band.

Chuck, you need to get out (or is it in?) more.

Rick "who wonders how many times the President's Own--as the full ensemble--plays outdoors" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

I think it's not true of most band music. Old marches, perhaps. But most of the good transcriptions and original works for band were either written for the military bands, for professional bands of the past, or for school bands. Most of those applications are indoors.

Well, here's some material for a poll, I think. I honestly don't know the outcome. But it would run something like this:

1. If you're a member of a military band (but not one of the elite DC-area bands, who are pretty much sui generis) out of the last 100 times you've played outside of rehearsal, what percentage has been out of doors?

2. If you belong to a high school band (marching, concert or otherwise) how many of your last 20 performances were out-of-doors?

Indoor concert bands are an anathema to me if I'm in the audience. They tend to be so loud that I can't hear them. I do far better if I can leave the hall and listen from the lobby. Extreme sound levels distort in my hearing are are not pleasant at all. It's also why I stay away from tuba recitals--there have been relatively few exceptions where a performer didn't feel the need to play loud enough to curdle the milk I had with my Wheaties that morning.

[GC]

That's one thing I enjoy about playing in a Civil War recreators' band: 2 Eb soprano cornets (one of ours is an Eb soprano flugelhorn, of all things); 2 or 3 Bb cornets; 2 Eb alto horns; 1 Bb tenor, 1 Bb baritone, and 1 Bb bass (the differences are in bore sizes; the bass is actually almost a euphonium, and he sometimes use one when the period horn is having problems); and 1 or 2 Eb contrabasses (tubas). It's one per part except for the tubas, and the size of the tuba section varies.

Our horns are almost all rotary-valved period instruments, with only a couple of modern horns and a couple of recreated instruments. This also means that they function best from A443-445.

It creates a nicely colored sound without too much middle and with a clear top. Smaller groups can get cleaner, shinier, more colored sounds that big groups just wash out. It's just another reason that NABBA and some other brass band orbanizations limit the size of the group to around 30. I shudder to think what a brass band with 100 or more members would sound like indoors.

Of course, outside is a different matter . . .

[jtuba]

We've tried various players (all very fine musicians), when playing F and the blend totally goes to pot.


Robert I. Coulter
BBb Bass - Georgia Brass Band
Tuba Coach - Georgia Youth Symphony Youth Brass Band

Thanks Rob. I played in the group's EEb section on several different tubas, mainly a 983. I had a 981 for a week that made my arm go numb and when I was getting ready to leave the group, I had to turn in the 983 and played my Gronitz F. I guess it was my playing on the latter instrument that led to the GBB's decision to ban F tuba Maybe if I had a Willson EEb...