Female versus male teachers

[WoodSheddin]

Sig block is new. I Pmed Rick about how nearly every single post made by "muf" mentioned Velvet Brown or her recent recording. This person is doing a tremendous disservice to her with these posts.

I guess you noticed that too. I noticed a while back but did not fully make the connection. I did a bit more research this time and decided to go ahead and add the sig myself. I am about 95% it is the right fit.

[quinterbourne]

From http://personal.bgsu.edu/~mcfava/index.html

"Feminist Theory"
"Gender Politics"
"feminist musicology"

Figures... typical feminist complaining about us evil boys with not a shred of evidence supporting their claim(s). Anything to further their agenda.

[SplatterTone]

Can't blame me. I love Ann Coulter.

[Mojo workin']

tuben-

I'm not implying that Carol is the beginning of high quality female tuba playing.

I do not feel like I am doing a SEVERE DISSERVICE to those that came before her.

I didn't imply that there was a lack of enthusiasm for players like Connie Weldon.

I AM saying that if you want to go back as you do to the days of Connie Weldon's prime and compare her to other orchestra players/soloists/teachers of the time, her playing would not stack up to her best male colleagues' playing. Perhaps her teaching, but not her playing.

There were no female tubists whose playing was as good as their male counterparts', until Carol. Period.

That's the view from where I'm standing.

[WoodSheddin]

This business about not wanting female teachers, et al. is pure and utter horseshit. Truthfully, there just aren't that many lady tubists.

Doc

That pretty much sums it up. I have NEVER seen a situation at ANY audition where gender played a role in the decision to hire or not. It ALL came down to who could play the music.

Having more men than women play tuba is not a bad thing. It is just a thing. The only real obstacles women need to overcome is their own willingness to practice and win. Same as the men have too.

Young girls tend to not choose tuba. Plain and simple. We should not be pressuring girls to pick tuba just to meet some kind of arbitrary quota. No one gets hurt if fewer women pick tuba than French horn.

People choose who to study with based in a large part on the success of that teacher in turning out employed musicians. At least that is how grad school usually works. Undergrad is more about the school reputation itself and scholarships/financial aid/tuition costs.

If the teacher can play, has success at what the student wishes to pursue professionally, and can actually teach well enough that the students get jobs, then you will have no problem getting students.

If someone has problems recruiting students, then don't blame it on gender bias. Get your students scholarship money and employed.

[Biggs]

Girls of any age are no less capable of playing the tuba than their male peers.

I think, if anything, the reason the tuba is not a "girl" instrument is that when young children are selecting their instrument for beginning band or when directors are pairing students with instruments in beginning band, most people do not pick an instrument that is a physical mismatch. Holding the instrument to play it can be accommodated by all means of stands and harnesses, but actually moving a 20 lb instrument and its case is a tough task for a young girl, who, generally speaking, is of smaller stature than a boy the same age.

Sorry to ramble. The tuba is definitely a girl's instrument (look at all the curves!), but only when they are beyond the age when their poor band director has to carry their instrument about for them.

[CrappyEuph]

Interestingly, I wanted to play tuba when we selected band instruments in fourth grade. Playing an instrument that was bigger than I was seemed like a really cool idea to me. I got shut down by my band director - a woman, and a flute player - who told me that she wouldn't let me or any other girl play tuba because we wouldn't be able to carry it. She put me on "baritone" because it was the next best thing.

It's hard to get young girls interested in tuba in the first place, but I wonder how many of those few who want to play it end up being discouraged from it (or prohibited) by their directors, parents, or friends?

Sorry to feed the troll...

- Jamie

[quinterbourne]

It would be interesting to study the percentage of male tuba players who intend to go pro, who actually achieve a full time career through teaching, performing or a combination of the two... then compare it to the percentage of female tuba players accomplishing the same. My initial educated guess would be that the percentage may be actually higher among females.

However, if 95% of the attempts to go pro are made by males, of course it is less likely that you will find many pro females teaching... and the top performers/teachers will, statistically, likely be males, and thus would create an increased demand to study with those top performers/teachers who just happen to be men.

I happen to study with a female teacher, and gender never entered my mind at all when making my decision.

I'd still like to view "the messages in this forum" that demonstrate "a certain lack of enthusiasm in suggesting or even talking about studying with a female teacher."

I would also like to know if the "guys who will never choose a college where a woman teaches" actually has anything to do with gender at all.

I would also like to suggest that the "performance by a “bigâ€

[FarahShazam]

Pretty surprising that Velvet Brown would associate herself with someone of such low standards of professional behavior. I happen to know Velvet and doubt she endorses this person's approach or this thread.

BTW, I agree with Doc in saying we certainly shouldn't think that VB is responsible for the alleged misrepresentation. Perhaps the OP posts at other musical sites as well trying to gather interest in her clients.

From http://personal.bgsu.edu/~mcfava/index.html

"Feminist Theory"
"Gender Politics"
"feminist musicology"

Figures... typical feminist complaining about us evil boys with not a shred of evidence supporting their claim(s). Anything to further their agenda.

There are extremes in almost every belief system. She is an extreme. Most are not, therefore, she is not "typical". Nice generalization.

[MikeMason]

Personally, i don't give a sh!t.If you can bring it,you can bring it.I'll buy your cd's and start admiring you.One of the people I respect most in the world,James Jenkins,has the utmost of respect for Mrs. Weldon.That's all I need to know.As far as talent, you're either got it,or not.You can't fake it or hide it for very long.Ms. Brown ,and Carol both have more than their share and I will support any project they want to offer...

[MikeMason]

PS, i sure wish i had my edit button back...........can't spell worth a s.....

[Albertibass]

Velvet Brown's new CD really is good. I wanted to study with her next year, but PSU didnt accept me to the university. She really is a great teacher, and i wish i had the oppurtunity to study with her.

[ZNC Dandy]

This reminds me of the seemingly constant Vienna Philharmonic debate.

[windshieldbug]

muf,
If you've been a TubeNet member for three years, then you will understand when I say that my reaction to this is:

RAW BRASS ROTARY CC!

[pwhitaker]

This debate/discussion has also been encountered in the worlds of pure mathematics (virtually no famous female mathematicians) and tournament chess (very few female Grandmasters.) At least this community is in good company.

[Rick Denney]

This reminds me of the seemingly constant Vienna Philharmonic debate.

Hence my comment about violin players (even though the Vienna debate centered, as I recall, on a trombone player). There are sections where women are well represented in the middle ranks but are much more rarely found in the principal chair. And there are orchestras that clearly discriminate on the basis of sex. There are reasons to discuss these things in the context of some of those groups, especially those in the Olde Worlde with more of a "sense of tradition" governing their attitudes.

That discussion you mentioned revealed all sides of the debate, with the consensus strongly biased towards the abilities of the performer and not the sex. It refutes rather than demonstrates what has been accused here.

Rick "tired of people with chips on their shoulders" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I am sorry that my question has raised so many concerns.

If anything, your explanation bothers me more than the original post, because it demonstrates how willing you are to use smooth words to cover up deep resentment. If you have an opinion, state it. Provide supporting evidence. After all, maybe we are too biased to see what is apparently clear to you. Being mealy mouthed will accomplish nothing.

I really think that your strategy is to kick the anthill and then complain about how aggressive ants are when they start stinging you. I've seen responses like this one in many debates, where the stingee feigns remorse. It's a common strategy in modern polemics, and I hear it all the time. But it's rare on Tubenet

Rick "not buying it" Denney

[Rick Denney]

There are extremes in almost every belief system. She is an extreme. Most are not, therefore, she is not "typical". Nice generalization.

Maybe she's a typical extremist. It all depends on where you draw the "feminist" boundary.

(I find the views expressed--of women not getting fair reviews or consideration on the basis of their sex--to be typical among the women I know well, though most would not at all describe themselves as extremists, or even feminists. But they are not expressing their opinion about Tubenet.)

Rick "thinking some extremists dream of being typical" Denney

[Uncle Buck]

I wonder if Ms. Fava initiated this thread to collect responses from this group as research for a paper she intends to write. ("Sexism in a semi-anonymous Internet chat: The REAL attitudes revealed . . .")

[FarahShazam]

There are extremes in almost every belief system. She is an extreme. Most are not, therefore, she is not "typical". Nice generalization.

Maybe she's a typical extremist. It all depends on where you draw the "feminist" boundary.

(I find the views expressed--of women not getting fair reviews or consideration on the basis of their sex--to be typical among the women I know well, though most would not at all describe themselves as extremists, or even feminists. But they are not expressing their opinion about Tubenet.)

Rick "thinking some extremists dream of being typical" Denney

I don't think there is anything typical about being extreme. The definition of extreme is "of a character or kind farthest removed from the ordinary or average".

I have never, ever felt bias in regards to my gender. The kind of people who would base this opinion on me wouldn't get my attention or respect. So, I have never felt the bias. It exists, I am sure, but it is one of the few things that get to me. I'm thankful of that--I have enough things to worry about.