Los Angeles area orchestra to FIRE 65 MUSICIANS

[Mark]

These organization receive government funds and donations from patrons; the money donated by patrons is excluded from taxation; for these reasons they OWE some loyalty to the community (which includes the musicians they employ).

So, if a member of the orchestra wins an audition with the Boston Symphony, are you saying they should deciline the job and remain in Pasadena because they owe it to the community that has paid their salary all these years?

As meager as it is, the contract under which the two organizations are functioning should be enforced, even if the union has to take it to court.

If the contract is valid and binding, then it should be hjonored by both parties. If it is not honored, then it should go to court.

[greggu]

The union should fight the good fight for their members. All the dues should be for something. I am not a union man nor have I ever been. I can't say I've always liked grievances I've faced in the manufacturing sector, but as a company we've been forced to live up to our agreement. I feel bad for anyone who loses a job, but these musicians should be reaching out to their brothers (who are taking their jobs) for support. We certainly don't need condescending comments from Alexc, as if we all don't have time and talent invested in our way of life, and families to take care of. Additionally the management is keeping their mouth shut, so at this point we really don't know their side of the issue. In this case, as bad as I feel for these musicians, they have their union, and the justice system to rely on for the time being. Although I don't have any stats, there are probably a large number of union members in LA area to asist these folks.

[Chuck(G)]

Actually, you can't get laid off just because your are 50. You can get laid off for just about any other reason (such as a general reduction in force), but laying someone off just because they reach an age above 40 would be a violation of the Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967. To prove it, of course, you'd have to show a pattern of employees being "laid off" as they turn 50 (not at all easy, of course). To justify it as a reduction in force, the employer would need to demonstrate that forces are actually being reduced without discrimination.

Rick, I'm sure you've attended your share of EEO Act seminars, and multitudinous others. More than half the time, the experts who give them are asked to supply "workarounds" for the law, which they happily do.

I've been in seminars where one fellow got up and asked bluntly "How can we hire only Korean men?" The workshop presenter knew who paid his salary and happily furnished some suggestions.

Age discrimination is one of the hardest things to prove. An employer need only terminate your position--you become redundant and the employer is free to create a new position with a different title and recruit for it.

Bloke's got it right--you do the very best job you can and hope for the best.

[WoodSheddin]

Tenure is there to protect musicians from new conductors who "have a girlfriend", or "boyfriend". Tenured musicians can be dismissed, but not capriciously. I wonder if some of the anti-tenure posters here ever held down a real symphony chair themselves - Hmmm?

Good luck on the situation. There is a small troop of people on this website who flock to one individual's opinions and defend them like a gang. Don't let that lead you to believe that the majority of musicians here feel the need to desert our own and kick them to the streets.

Good luck with it all. Tough situation.

[pwhitaker]

I was President of our local American Federation of Teachers Union at a small liberal arts college in the early 80's that went bankrupt.. I spent 6 years "negotiating" with the bankruptcy lawyers for the creditors in order to get the retirement and pension funds misappropriated by them in the bankruptcy.
We eventually got about 30% of what we should have gotten had the monies been in the proper accounts drawing tax-free interest.

If the LA AFM is not willing to go to the mat with the management then the tenured musicains are screwed.

I have to agree with the earlier sentiments expressed about the cutthroat nature of academics (I've was a college professor for 12 years), musicians unions (the local AFM's are notorious here in the Northeast) and IT (worked in IT for 10 years at a large insurance corporation). As Bloke said one can only do one's best - and keep the resume current (and keep the powder dry.)

I'm not sanguine about the fate of the "downsized" musicians.
Unions have been a dirty word since Regan first took office.
Bean-counters and lawyers usually prevail.

[MikeMason]

Unions are not all good or all bad.I believe they are responsible for manufacturing going under in the US.Look at the car or band instrument business.The global value of building a trumpet or car is not 40.oo per hour(if you figure all benefits and social security contributions).It is more like 10.00 per hour.However,we haven't turned down the raises or good insurance the teachers' union has gotten for my wife.Unfortunately,the overinflated wages and bennies the unions have gotten for their employees has led to the demise of the manufacturing sector in the US.Keep your skills current and marketable,be entrepreneurial,live on less than you make and save for a rainy day,marry rich(if possible).My unsolicited(as always) advice...

[Alex C]

These organization receive government funds and donations from patrons; the money donated by patrons is excluded from taxation; for these reasons they OWE some loyalty to the community (which includes the musicians they employ).

So, if a member of the orchestra wins an audition with the Boston Symphony, are you saying they should deciline the job and remain in Pasadena because they owe it to the community that has paid their salary all these years?

You don't get it. It's the two orchestras that are getting tax exempt money from the community, not the musicians. The musicians are employees who work under a contract. If the contract said they can't take a better job except under specified conditions, then they have to abide by that or not sign a contract.

I don't understand the antagonistic attitude toward musicians who are losing their jobs.

[TubaRay]

I certainly have to agree with "MikeMason"(above). It may not be what we want to hear, but I believe it to be true.

[Biggs]

There is a small troop of people on this website who flock to one individual's opinions and defend them like a gang.

Guys, I know you worship the ground I walk on, but let's all take a step back for the time being.

In all seriousness, anyone I would flock to would have to know the difference between "effect" and "affect." Call me triskadecaphobic if you must.

[windshieldbug]

I've wondered what a modern orchestra would be like if it was run the same way a lot of commercial operations are. Tenure? Ain't no such thing--you can get laid off a day before you're vested for retirement--or just because you've turned 50

One reason that musician unions exist is because you don't spend just four years training for level of competence demanded by your employer. Nor does you employer expect or even offer any professional training once you've accepted a position. FOR YOUR POSITION OR TO "RETRAIN" ANOTHER 20 YEARS FOR ANY OTHER.

And yes, there IS a real parallel. The university education system. Since these days one is almost expected to have a doctorate or be actively persuing one, tenure after a reasonable period is a fair result for all one's preparation.

Is it POSSIBLE that a fair-minded organization could exist without these guarentees? Sure, but not ALWAYS, as seems to be the case reported.

[Biggs]

In all seriousness, anyone I would flock to would have to know the difference between "effect" and "affect." Call me triskadecaphobic if you must.

I find it interesting that - as seldom as I use those words on this site - I have been incorrectly (??) corrected on their usage almost every time I've used them.

a changing culture which has affected the wealthy in the same way it has affected the pedestrian classes

affect Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from affectus, past participle of afficere

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/triskadecaphobic

You are correct that affect and effect are both commonly used nouns and verbs. However, effect cannot be used passively. That is to say, someone cannot be effected, but they can effect.

Examples of correct usages:

a.) The magician's show involved several visual effects.

b.) Over the last several years, the mayor has effected change in the community.

c.) Depression, among other affects, can strongly dictate the mental state.

d.) My ability to play the tuba is affected by my lack of practice time.


I believe the "incorrect" corrections you refer to were offered by me (at least in some instances), but the fact remains that they were not incorrect. Further review of the dictionary definitions you provided should give more insight into what I am trying to explain. Pay careful attention to the distinction between active verbs (i.e. "The boy threw the ball.") and passive verbs (i.e. "The ball was thrown by the boy."). When I have questions about issues like these, (nearly every day on the job) I refer to the AP Stylebook - the standard in mainstream English communication.

I don't mean to 'call you out' over what is, essentially, a trivial matter that will be and should be largely ignored by all other denizens of TubeNet. My intentions are simply to take a stand against ignorance (particularly widespread among my demographic), stubbornness, and wrongly presumed infallibility.

[Chuck(G)]

One reason that musician unions exist is because you don't spend just four years training for level of competence demanded by your employer. Nor does you employer expect or even offer any professional training once you've accepted a position. FOR YOUR POSITION OR TO "RETRAIN" ANOTHER 20 YEARS FOR ANY OTHER.

And yes, there IS a real parallel. The university education system. Since these days one is almost expected to have a doctorate or be actively persuing one, tenure after a reasonable period is a fair result for all one's preparation.

I know plenty of PhD's who work in industry (and a few of them have multiple doctorates). They don't get tenure and they're just as likely to get axed when the going gets tough as anyone else. (and they have the same amount or more of "education" as a university professor with tenure). The degree starts you off at a higher pay level, if your potential employer doesn't decide that you're overqualified. (What you do then, is to hide that degree if you want to eat--or serve up cones at Baskin-Robbins waiting for that ideal job).

The way to hang onto a job is to be an asset to your employer. If you're not an asset, you get pink-slipped. I don't know why it should be any different in any other field.

The 65 musicians in question appear to be surplus. How, from a business standpoint, does one justify keeping them on?

You're right on one aspect--universities and orchestras are pretty much the same game--most aren't self-supporting--they require either taxpayer money or endowments to operate. A university faculty member who can bring in endowments and grants is pretty much welcome anywhere and tenure is irrelevant.

I wonder what would happen if those musicians who are about to be furloughed brought in a few million from the well-heeled in Pasadena?

[lgb&dtuba]

Read Wade's posts on this until it sinks in. Good real world info there for aspiring "Art" musicians.

[Mark]

These organization receive government funds and donations from patrons; the money donated by patrons is excluded from taxation; for these reasons they OWE some loyalty to the community (which includes the musicians they employ).

So, if a member of the orchestra wins an audition with the Boston Symphony, are you saying they should deciline the job and remain in Pasadena because they owe it to the community that has paid their salary all these years?

You don't get it. It's the two orchestras that are getting tax exempt money from the community, not the musicians.

Huh? What do you think the orchestras were doing with that tax-exempt money?

I don't understand the antagonistic attitude toward musicians who are losing their jobs.

I have a lot of sympathy for those musicians and I wish that circumstances would have allowed them to keep their jobs.

[Mark]

If you can't understand that, you probably play for free or do a lot of 2 hour gigs for $25.

My wife and I spent nearly $4,000 on tickets to the Seattle Symphony last year (more than that if you include parking). I also make contributions to the Seattle Symphony and to a couple of other orchestras in the area. We know a lot of other "amateur" musicians that spend similar amounts on professional orchestras.

If I believed that the members of our local orchestras thought that way about us, I would find other things for us to do with our money. (Which, by the way, we earned without union protection, or tenure and through a couple of "layoffs".)

[Chuck(G)]

My wife and I spent nearly $4,000 on tickets to the Seattle Symphony last year (more than that if you include parking). I also make contributions to the Seattle Symphony and to a couple of other orchestras in the area. We know a lot of other "amateur" musicians that spend similar amounts on professional orchestras.

If I believed that the members of our local orchestras thought that way about us, I would find other things for us to do with our money. (Which, by the way, we earned without union protection, or tenure and through a couple of "layoffs".)

Thank you!

[Richard Murrow]

EuphManRob Wrote:

"Do TubeNetters with years of professional/mercenary /other experience have any pertinent words of practical wisdom for me and other young people just beginning their careers?"

Rob,

I'm not sure how much sage advice I do or don't have to offer, but I can tell you this: "Never put all your eggs in one basket"!

No matter how hard you work, how much you prepare, this is possibly the most fragile business known to man. Now before some of you who are in other professions get your feathers ruffled, here's why I say this.
1. No one has to have live professional music to survive. While it is usually done with more refinement than most non-professional performances, people have gotten along just fine for many years with some pickin' and grinnin' on the back porch by friends who never made a dime in their lives for playing music.

2. It is also fragile because at least in the freelance world you are constantly walking a tight rope so as to not upset the contractor or conductor. YOU rarely have control over who gets hired next, unless you are the contractor.

3. THe more different avenues you can create for yourself, i.e., teaching, playing, repair, merchandising, writing , arranging, etc., the better off you are. And don't forget doubles. When I went in the Navy MANY years ago as a tuba player, I had to learn bass, I already played trombone and the ability to have these doubles has definitely added more steak to the Murrow dinner table.

4. Get along with other musicians. Be cordial, be early, and be quite! Always thank the contractor at the end of the job. I have done alot of hiring in my career and it always amazes me when a player that I've never met before and called at the last minute only says, "Where's the check". No, Hi, I'm John Doe and I really appreciate the call. He just moved down on my list or maybe off the list!

5. Remember, in every major city, there are good players under every rock.

So the point is, even if you are in an unfortunate situation like the one in this thread, if you take care of business you can continue to work. Sometimes taking care of business is more than just how well you play!

[TubaingAgain]

I will have to stand up and CHEER as loud as I can after the Comment that Bloke just made!!!!!
After being involved for many years with "UNIONS" and seeing exactly what the American union stands for, I have just a few things to say.

Why is that a 53 year old steel worker makes 68k a year and has to sign his paycheck with a "X"

Why do Union autoworkers average $32.00 per hour plus benefits?

The list goes on for UNION workers.

No wonder imports to America are killing the domestic products.

Unions had a place, and a time in American history Back in 30's and 40's.

The time has come and alot of companies have seen exactly what the Unions do, protect workers that could not find work anywhere outside a union situation and drive up the price of their products.

I say leave all unions in the past where they belong and build a stronger America for tomorrow.

[Alex F]

Why is that a 53 year old steel worker makes 68k a year and has to sign his paycheck with a "X"

Because he gets paid to make steel under difficult and often dangerous conditions, not write union bashing posts on the internet

Why do Union autoworkers average $32.00 per hour plus benefits?

Why the hell not? What do you recommend? Minimum wage?

The list goes on for UNION workers.

No wonder imports to America are killing the domestic products.

Imports are killing American production because bosses have found sources of cheap labor where workers have few choices. This will not last forever. Some day, these folks will start demanding better wages and working conditions and as well.

Unions had a place, and a time in American history Back in 30's and 40's.


The time has come and alot of companies have seen exactly what the Unions do, protect workers that could not find work anywhere outside a union situation and drive up the price of their products.

Employment in the United States is, for the most part, "at will." This means an employer can fire any employee for any reason or no reason (with the limited exception of certain labor and anti-discrimination statutes). Where there is a collective bargaining agreement, terminations require proof of just cause and provide a grievance to challenge unjust termination.

I say leave all unions in the past where they belong and build a stronger America for tomorrow.

I'm sure you would be welcomed as "Man of the Year" in the so-called "right to work" states. Millions of hard working men and women disagree. I'm proud to represent many of them.

[Biggs]

My intentions are simply to take a stand against ignorance (particularly widespread among my demographic), stubbornness, and wrongly presumed infallibility.

If a know-it-all is going to stand on a podium and correct a know-it-all, that know-it-all should probably know that the stand-out word in their bigg post contained a couple of errors:

triskaidekaphobi[a]

Fo' sho'. My bad.

I don't mean to 'call you out' over what is, essentially, a trivial matter that will be and should be largely ignored by all other denizens of TubeNet.

That's not a problem at all: My name is Joe Sellmansberger. I live near Memphis, Tennessee...

...and your name is...??

My identity and location have been researched and determined by people far less capable than yourself. However, the fact that these people were far more interested in things like my identity and location probably gives an idea as to why they were far less capable.