How did the brass repairman do it?

[sungfw]

I shouldn't be tempted by this challenge, but shouldn't the repair match the value of the instrument? i.e. does it make any sense to make a 24 carat fix of a tin horn?

The value to whom?

I own two euphs: a Besson Imperial and a King 2268 (non-comp). Even though Besson is a far better horn than the King, and even though these days I play the Besson > 90% of the time, if I could only keep one horn, I'd dump the Besson in a heartbeat and wouldn't give it a second thought because the King was a HS graduation present from my parents. So, because of what the King represents, to me, it has an intangible value that that cannot be measured in terms of dollars and cents (or whatever your local currency happens to be).

[windshieldbug]

So, because of what the King represents, to me, it has an intangible value that that cannot be measured in terms of dollars and cents (or whatever your local currency happens to be).

I think you're proving Kenton's point. The value to you, since you're the person who owns it, not the value to an insurance company. Should you decide that a repair to this horn is worth a ton of local currency, one would also hope that you would communicate so to said repairperson!

[sungfw]

I think you're proving Kenton's point.

Hunh? Proving Rick Denny's point, yes; but phrases like "does it make any sense to make a 24 carat fix of a tin horn," " 'out the door' fixes," and "low level instrument" imply that Kenton was referring to the monetary value of the instrument, so I find it extremely difficult to interpret Kenton's post to mean that a "tin horn" that has intangible, non-monetary value to its owner is worth the repair tech's best energies and efforts.

I shouldn't be tempted by this challenge, but shouldn't the repair match the value of the instrument? i.e. does it make any sense to make a 24 carat fix of a tin horn?

Sometimes, 'out the door' fixes are exactly what is needed to keep a low level instrument in the game.

[Kenton]

There are all kinds of reasons to enhance the value of an instrument, whether it is the innate quality of the instrument, its emotional attachment to the owner, etc. But, that wasn't my point.

I was only trying to acknowledge that there are certainly times when a simple adjustment, a fix of only major problems, etc. makes better sense, given the use to which the instrument is to be put. And, to do so, doesn't represent poor craftsmanship.

[TheBerlinerTuba]

I agree with about 90% of what you said, but to be fair, I don't think that anyone who teaches at a repair school, with maybe one exception, actually thinks you learn enough to repair anything once you get out of school. Most students come out of there thinking in their heads they can do anything, but learn in about 20 minutes at a real job that they don't.

When I went to Renton Tech with Daryl Hickman, he made it very clear to us everyday that we were getting the basic skills in how to fix certain things, but he was never the be-all end-all of repairs. I've learned a lot from talking to others, watching them work, or simply from trying something on a junker in my bin, and then doing it to a customer's instrument only when I feel I can complete the repair properly.

I'm curious as to whom made the bell crease that you had. There are many self-proclaimed "famous" technicians.
_________________
Andy Smith
Huttl for Life
Miraphone C4

Hi Andy,
Thanks for your comments! I hope I can make myself a bit more clear in this reply. From what I understand from your post, you learned "basic skills" at the Renton trade school, but these "basic skills" were not sufficient to facilitate general repairs on wind instruments? Please correct me if I have misunderstood, but it sounds like you learned most of your skills "on the job". If this is the case, then why did you bother going to trade school rather than apprenticing at a shop?
Of course, it's not right to assume that upon graduation of a one year course that you can restore a tuba, however without good basic training, how can you expect to improve your skills, much less hold down a good job? Really, what's the point in spending a year of tuition and 1 year of living costs in Seattle if you don't have the skills to show for it. In our modern world, people are big on certification, but unlike other industries, wind instrument repair is not regulated to a tangible standard. Working in a shop under a real profession, however old fashioned it may seem, is probably a safer bet. Of course, going to a trade school allows you to network, and it's likely that Daryl Hickman has connections to help you get a job. However, this discussion is about learning skills in repair rather than job hunting.
As for my bell crease, I have no desire to sling mud. Said repair person is someone who posts here and I'm not interested in bringing up the past...besides, if it wasn't for his/her lousy work, I would never have been inspired to learn how to fix my own bell:)
ciao
2165

[Dan Schultz]

...... Thanks for your comments! I hope I can make myself a bit more clear in this reply. From what I understand from your post, you learned "basic skills" at the Renton trade school, but these "basic skills" were not sufficient to facilitate general repairs on wind instruments?
2165

Isn't this the way most educations work? After I graduated from engineering school back in the 70's, my first employer politely informed me that just because I went to college doesn't mean I know all there is to know about getting the job done. Boy... was he right!

As far as the repair business goes.... I suspect that most any repairman that's worth his salt learns something new most every day.

[windshieldbug]

You know what "they" say; You learn something new every day, if you're not careful...

[ASTuba]

Hi Andy,
Thanks for your comments! I hope I can make myself a bit more clear in this reply. From what I understand from your post, you learned "basic skills" at the Renton trade school, but these "basic skills" were not sufficient to facilitate general repairs on wind instruments? Please correct me if I have misunderstood, but it sounds like you learned most of your skills "on the job". If this is the case, then why did you bother going to trade school rather than apprenticing at a shop?
Of course, it's not right to assume that upon graduation of a one year course that you can restore a tuba, however without good basic training, how can you expect to improve your skills, much less hold down a good job? Really, what's the point in spending a year of tuition and 1 year of living costs in Seattle if you don't have the skills to show for it. In our modern world, people are big on certification, but unlike other industries, wind instrument repair is not regulated to a tangible standard. Working in a shop under a real profession, however old fashioned it may seem, is probably a safer bet. Of course, going to a trade school allows you to network, and it's likely that Daryl Hickman has connections to help you get a job. However, this discussion is about learning skills in repair rather than job hunting.
As for my bell crease, I have no desire to sling mud. Said repair person is someone who posts here and I'm not interested in bringing up the past...besides, if it wasn't for his/her lousy work, I would never have been inspired to learn how to fix my own bell:)
ciao
2165

Glad to make my points clearer. I apologize they weren't clear to begin with. I think repair school, like most any other college education, gives you the basics in how to do anything. In this case, cleaning, pad seating, adjustment, regulation, straight-forward soldering, basic dent work, etc. However, within my first two weeks on the job, I had already improved 100% more than I had in repair school, and the level of improvement just increased from there.

I'm not saying that I didn't have the tools to succeed or to get hired, because I was hired. What I am saying is that no one gets a complete education from a repair school. It takes much longer to master the art, whether from someone else's guidance or by your own will and desire to get better.

Hope this helps.

[Dan Schultz]

Yes, Bloke.... tube expanders are viable tools to have around. They can do a nice job if you are just careful how you use them.

Maybe it would be fun to distort this thread a bit (as if it isn't already!) by asking any and all repair guys on the forum give us a account of that really crappy job they did in an effort to just 'get it playing and out the door'. C'mon... regardless of what a fantastic craftsman you are... you know you've done it. 'Fes up.

The internet consists of text and pictures...Just like all the dorn sites, a lot of the rest of the web is 100% bullshit. There are a lot of pretty pictures of tubas: I'm guilty of throwing a few of them up here myself.

I think it is a high craft to be able to take a f.u.b.a.r. sousaphone (brass or fiberglass) and, in 30 minutes to an hour, get everything working properly and everything holding together reliably BECAUSE THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT A BAND DIRECTOR WANTS...a band director who must be back at the school in 70 minutes to load buses for a game or competition, and who has not yet had any dinner.

Further, I think it is a high craft to be able to repair an instrument formerly labeled "un-repairable". .......

bloke "who cannot make an effective living doing 250-hour 4-valve BBb sousaphone to 5-valve CC helicon restoration-conversions with deluxe satin/bright silver/gold finishes"

Well stated. You said EXACTLY what I wanted to say and couldn't find the proper words. Bright and shiney is nice.... but it ain't everything.

[Rick Denney]

I was only trying to acknowledge that there are certainly times when a simple adjustment, a fix of only major problems, etc. makes better sense, given the use to which the instrument is to be put. And, to do so, doesn't represent poor craftsmanship.

Your last sentence is especially right on the mark. Some techs just don't take those sorts of projects, which is entirely their right. But I won't think any less of those who do. A cheap but effective repair may require as much or more creativity and craftsmanship as a flawless but exorbitantly expensive repair.

It should be the owner who decides, of course.

Rick "who wants his tubas to be in excellent playing condition but still show their history" Denney

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

I think there is a good middle ground with regard to the extent most repair is done. What is important is that it functions properly and is sound structurally. The looks are important to me but not paramount.

Some of you may have an issue with what I say here and so may the owners of the instrument. Yes, it is there horn to do with as they please and there money but it is my time and my reputation. I have seen it on many occasions where repair work is done and the instrument functions, not great but acceptably. All the customer does is bitch about how sloppy the instrument was when they got it back. Or how the valve linkage clatters or the (leaky) valves are noisy and it is missing a felt on a key or they did not re-cork the neck or the latch on the case is still lose...

These same folks forget to mention that the Tech dropped everything and addressed the serious matter and got it back to them that same day (or in the 10 minutes they could spare him to do the work on there way to soccer practice) for the fictitious concert they had to play at on the third day of school. Yep, nothing travels faster then bad news.

Oh yeah, they managed to leave out the part that the Tech charged them $0, nada, big fat goose eggs for assisting them in there "bind". Yet they still felt justified in badmouthing him. Go figure? Because I have witnessed this many times, I refuse to let Customers hold a gun to my head due to it being an inconvenience for them to be without an instrument for a few days or because it is a twenty minute drive to the shop. I work with my customers to get the very best results keeping within the parameters of the budget while doing my best to deliver a good looking final product. Yamaha (YAS-23) alto sax: play condition, Bundy flute: repad, Leree oboe crack pinning or York tuba restoration, regardless of complexity or cost; good quality workmanship is what the customer expects. Allowing the customer to dictate my quality standard is a slippery slope that I chose to avoid even if it means the job goes to another shop.

I do not refuse to work on the cheap ISO (instrument shaped objects) or the someones recent ebay acquisitions. If it needs $200 worth of work, the fact that the horn cost $10 is not my concern. The job that needs to be done takes time to perform and in a busy shop, it takes time to get to the job. If it takes three hours of shop time, so be it.

Customers being pressed for time and/or financial distress are understandable reasons for a minimalist approach. Travel time can be grounds for bumping someone to the front of the line and doing the bare minimum as long as it is understood and appreciated. This however does not excuse sloppy and or incomplete workmanship. If the Owner of an instrument only wants it mechanically, structurally and/or acoustically sound, straightened out and/or cleaned up without an emphasis on dents or on the finish? Fine. If it can be done properly and within the budget agreed upon by the shop and the client, cool! I am not accusing anyone of this, but in my shop, that is not a pass that says that you are allowed to do a crap job and that you don't have to clean up after your work.

As a Tech who performs a good deal of basic/general repairs as well as advanced repair, top end restorations and custom work (woodwinds as well as brass) I understand and agree with most, if not all of the statements regarding "minimalist" repair. Bloke and Dan make valid points. This is not directed at anyone personally, it only grips me when it is used as an excuse or crutch for the lazy, the greedy, the cheap or incompetent to excuse themselves from doing the job properly.


Daniel C. "going to catch hell again for speaking his mind unfiltered" Oberloh

[eupher61]

Dan, let me say thanks, on behalf of the sometimes-rushed customers. But, my customer service background won't allow me to bitch about a quick fix...it's just not fair. If I put a $125 limit on a repair job, I don't expect you to do $400 worth (well, it would be nice, but...) If I say "that dent" or "that valve", how can I expect all the valves or the loose brace or the new receiver?

I've had too many good experiences with repair folks that DO drop everything for me to do something quick. It's always appreciated, by me at least.

What I DO object to is the shoddy work I've gotten at other shops, paid full price, and then there's no recourse when things aren't right. Except bad word-of-mouth. F'instance, I took a mouthpiece to a shop to get the shank shaved, matched to another. The way the guy put the thing on the lathe left 3 chunks out of BOTH mouthpieces, the outside right off the rim. I only paid $50, but the guy I borrowed the original mouthpiece from was really upset, and I don't blame him. I ended up spending another $50 on a tuner for him. And, that shop will never get work or recommendation from me. Yes, I do tell the story frequently.

The old adage: a satisfied customer will tell 1 person; a dissatisfied will tell 10.

I'd bet that person who's complaining after a "concert tonight" fix isn't doing too much bad to you, though. The embarrassment factor would be too strong. Well, I hope so, at least.

[lgb&dtuba]

Not every repair involves restoration. Conversely, every restoration involves repair at some level.

I make sure that my repair person and I agree on which of those we are contracting for. As well as the time required and available. Before the work commences.

I may need an emergency repair, but it would be hard for me to imagine an emergency restoration on any of my instruments.

Jim "not responsible for anyone else's instruments" Wagner

[jhedrick]

Although I wasn't directly involved - when I was still in high school the repairman at the store where I worked had done a complete overhaul on a trombone (dents, strip, relacquer, the works) We had had the horn for quite a while (nice, slow, steady craftsmanship) and the day the customer was to pick it up, the tech decided to give the slides a final buffing. The spit-key support caught in the buffing wheel and turned the slides into a pretzel.

[windshieldbug]

Well, you know what they say, "Buffer Beware!"