Sousaphone vs. Contra

[tubadood5150]

Reason #1 - sound of sousaphone fills stadiums better.

Reason #2 - Corps members are usually tougher than band kids.

Reason #3 - looks. Contras look at home with a drum corps. Sousaphones are what people expect to see in a college band.

I guarantee you that many DCI alum will give a contrary argument.

I won't give a contrary argument, but I'll add to the points you've made.

#4 - It's really, really difficult to hold a flipfolder of music while playing a contra.

4 words...trombone clip-on lyre. At least, that's what I use.

[tubadood5150]

Okay, I'll rephrase the question...

I'm reasonably sure no DCI, DCA, or DC-whatever groups use sousaphones. Please enlighten me if someone knows of such a group that does.

But are there marching bands, be them college, high school, or otherwise, that use contras? Not convertible tubas, real contras?

Carmel Indiana. Richard Saucedo is their director. He used to write music for the Cavaliers D&BC and really liked the sound of the contras they use. So he ordered a set and they have won BOA Grand Nationals in the past with them. Yamaha YBB202M Contras. They are actually really great horns.

[bububassboner]

In my listening experience, a single sousaphone played by a strong player can be heard in a stadium that seats 75,000, a shoulder tuba thing (whatever formal designation it has) generally cannot.

Last night was the Northwest marching band circuit championships and here were my thought. The groups using sousaphones (most of them) lacked ANY kind of support from the low end that was not from a synth. The only times you could even hear them was when they were within 15 steps from the front. While the groups that used contras had a solid low tuba sound where ever they where on the field. FWIW, the group that won (well they kinda destroyed everyone else) used Dynasty Contras.

[The Jackson]

Yesterday was the Florida Bandmaster Association evaluations for the district, so I went there and saw a lot of bands there. I saw and heard bands that use sousaphones (Including FIU and U of M's bands) and bands that used convertibles. The breakdown to me was that I could not categorize either regarding the sound. I heard good convertibles and good sousaphones last night. I also heard mediocre contras and sousaphones last night (Thank goodness, though, I was surprised to not heard any 'splatting'!). I think what's lacking more than the instrumentation department is the player. A strong player, I think, could do well on a convertible, contrabass bugle or sousaphone, and that is what I witnessed. I think that, if I were a director, the issue between convertible vs. sousaphone vs. contra would be the other factors (Funds, practicalities, etc.). I personally prefer a sousaphone and would chose that had I been given the choice.

[Uncle Buck]

For the model we used, the bracing on the leadpipe also sucked - the leadpipe and mouthpiece just moved around and floated constantly. Plus, tip the horn up a little too much, and get a face full of spit.

Did these convertibles happen to be Yamahas?

No, they were Conns.

[TCtubaKingConn00]

well in my experience there are pros and cons to both but the ammount of good tone and volume depends on the instrument mouthpiece and player. on the sousaphone side CONN 20K are the best. and on the Contra side i feel a good ole BBb yamaha 202 is good. (maybe a King 1141SP). but you could always try to march Conn 20J or 24J like Jacksonville State Marching Southerners. just stay away from convertibles.

[TCtubaKingConn00]

one reason you can barely hear contras is because college bands have like 20 sousaphones out there

[Michael Bush]

I played only Conn 15J convertibles and Getzen contras to march in the early 80s. I've only ever played a sousaphone while hanging out in the band room as a high school student. That being said, I always felt grateful for what I played. We could always make them sound the way we wanted, and if we didn't do so we got what we deserved from judges or the band director.

At the end of the day I think sousaphones are absurd-looking instruments, whatever their sonic virtues may be. Isn't that why they're never used in orchestras?

[SousaSaver]

Great question: correct answer - Sousaphone...always.

Why? Tradition, and I just personally like Sousas better. Contras are used in DCI and I understand that because everyone has a bugle shaped instrument and they are going for uniformity.

In a parade, a Sousaphone allows you to take a break. You can let your left shoulder do all the hard work. If you are marching with a Contra, both of your arms get tired.

Also I don't think that all convertibles can qualify as "Contra." The King convertible and the Yamaha 104 are REALLY tiny compared to the full sized Yamaha Contra.

If you aren't going to pursue DCI and your high school doesn't require the use of a Contra, use a Sousaphone. You won't be sorry...

[TCtubaKingConn00]

one thing i personally like my section to do is play sousa in the Stands and for Pre game and Pep Rallies and march half-time with Contras

[SousaSaver]

Pretty astute observation. Good times!

(Another reason why Sousaphones win...)

[Michael Bush]

Well, it's just an opinion. I don't care for them. You love them. That's fine.

But at any rate it isn't true that I have a sousaphone as my avatar. It's an old University of Kentucky logo. I can't find a musical instrument of any kind in it!

[Leland]

one reason you can barely hear contras is because college bands have like 20 sousaphones out there

Madison Scouts had 20 contras on the field in 2010. That's the most I've EVER seen in a DCI corps. Contra lines were commonly 8-10 players when a 64-member hornline was considered "full".

I didn't see Scouts live this year, though; just on the theater simulcast for Quarterfinals.

[TCtubaKingConn00]

one reason you can barely hear contras is because college bands have like 20 sousaphones out there

Madison Scouts had 20 contras on the field in 2010. That's the most I've EVER seen in a DCI corps. Contra lines were commonly 8-10 players when a 64-member hornline was considered "full".

I didn't see Scouts live this year, though; just on the theater simulcast for Quarterfinals.

ok but in college you might have some weak players in other sections but DCI takes all the strong players

[Leland]

ok but in college you might have some weak players in other sections but DCI takes all the strong players

[tangent]
May be true to an extent, but I'm going to say what my friends and I used to tell corps-age kids in college:

"Nobody is 'good enough' to march DCI. We just teach you how to be that good."

What I mean is, when you see corps at Finals, or even in midseason, they've already been spending weeks and weeks working on playing fundamentals (and miles & miles of marching fundamentals). Their ensemble sound is also being adjusted by the staff to exploit the potential of the players.

By the time they get recorded, they're good.

You gotta see them in preseason, though. Those first couple winter camps can be hairy. A first-year marcher might not even notice, either; but if it's your second year, and you're expecting to hear Finals-quality sound at the first downbeat of the winter, you're gonna wonder if it's even the same drum corps that you remember from August.

I've seen people go watch corps rehearse (I've watched, too). They have to realize, though, that the most interesting rehearsals are almost never after mid-July, but in June, and even better in early June during the first week or two of tour. That's when they're still learning things, adding parts, taking other parts out, changing or learning drill, adjusting foot techniques, figuring out dress points, playing the hardest parts that looked hot on paper but haven't gotten watered down yet... good, nitty-gritty stuff like that.

So -- my point is, the corps you see at Finals are as good as they're ever going to be. The kids are marching and playing the best you'll see all year. But back in January, they looked like any other band kids.

[/end tangent]

[ai698]

Here's a twist to this argument coming from a small school band director in Texas. My school has three Cleveland "Baby King" sousaphones that are probably about 25-35 years old (haven't looked up the serial numbers, yet). They're in good, playing shape for now. If I have to replace them, a good, new sousaphone is going to be $5000-6000 each. Drum corps are selling off their instruments every season, the good thing about going away from G instruments. I can get a used Yamaha or King "contra" for around $2500-$2750 from a top 17 corps that was used a year or two with some dents and dings. There aren't that many used sousaphones out there that are in lightly used shape, even from Taylor Music.

I've bought two Yamaha marching baritones and a Yamaha 4 1/3 octave marimba from Crossmen for half the price of new. They were used one season. I'll keep them for 25 years or more. My budget's about to get slashed (10-25%), and luckily my sousies are still working. If I had to replace them, I'll calling Fred Morrison, the director of Crossmen and get a Yamaha contra for under $2500 (returning customer price ). Instead, I'll be getting another marching baritone and hopefully a set of professional concert chimes, slightly used at half price.

[Leland]

And this is what killed off drum and bugle corps.

Nah, it was the concept of national touring corps. IMO, anyway. But that's a topic that's been beaten to death in other forums, too, so I'll just leave it at that.

[SousaSaver]

If I have to replace them, a good, new sousaphone is going to be $5000-6000 each. Drum corps are selling off their instruments every season, the good thing about going away from G instruments. I can get a used Yamaha or King "contra" for around $2500-$2750 from a top 17 corps that was used a year or two with some dents and dings. There aren't that many used sousaphones out there that are in lightly used shape, even from Taylor Music.

C'mon, you can get a good used Sousa that has had the dents removed for less than $2750.00. I know where you can get many...

[TUBAD83]

Having played both, I would say a sousaphone is far more preferable than a contra. Contras are great for drum corps, but you can't really use them any place else--I've used a sousaphone for concert band, dixieland, brass ensemble, pit band, show band, pep band, etc. As for comfort--yes, having a 25 pound tuba balanced on one shoulder looks cool, but marching with a sousaphone looks cool AND is easier on your shoulders and back.

Its just a matter of time before DCI, in their endless pursuit of $$$, will allow sousaphones to used. Did anyone ever thought that bugles would go away???

JJ

[Leland]

The more I look back through this thread, the more I'm reminded that this particular thread isn't that old. We talked about this on the old TubeNet BBS, too, and I might have said pretty much the same things back then.

The only real difference now is that there are some nice-playing marching tubas being produced, thanks in no small part to design input from some top pros (not me, of course; I just honk). There used to be a chasm of quality between redheaded stepchild BBb convertibles and the top two or three GG models, but not anymore. The best modern BBb contra tubas are on a par, or better than, the best GG contras of the 80's and 90's (although I'm planning to keep my K-90 'till I die).