Against the "cloned instrument" idea

[funkhoss]

DESTROY and DISCARD any/all heirloom antiques made in New England or England that may have been made in "sweat shops" and/or by "child labor".

As stated in the previous post, buying second hand does NOT support or profit the original manufacturer (especially in the case of older products where the company is no longer in business). Additionally, it has the added benefits of not using any new raw materials and preventing one more thing from finding its way into a landfill.

Also, to cjk and bloke, please to not attack me personally. If you disagree with me, GREAT! However, for a truly productive discussion, please confront my arguments, not my person. I will try to do the same.

Regards,

Sam F.

[tofu]

I think competition is good. It spurs innovation and efficiencies and keeps prices fair. It does bother me that the Chinese don't operate on a level playing field. They don't play fair with significant trade barriers for sellers into their country, they don't have the labor laws that Western countries do such as child labor, they pretty much ignor patent, copyright, trademark laws, they don't have the environmental regulations that the west has and their goal is to blow out competitors in high labor content products. China has a huge problem with employing the legions of rural folks who are being weaned off the state welfare system. Low skill jobs in autos, steel and basic assembly are just the ticket. For years western countries were willing to shed these jobs on the belief that they could move their whole work force to more desired (in their minds at the time) skilled jobs requiring significant skill and education. The problem, as the US found out is that they still needed those high paying auto jobs for example for the folks who wouldn't, didn't or couldn't get those higher education skill sets, due to lack of effort, time, IQ or resources. So now nobody wants to give up those basic industry jobs and thus world wide there is about a 40% excess capacity in auto plants. Now you have several nations openly or covertly subsidizing autos. The biggest potential market is China but they have erected significant barriers. A few years ago I remember reading that one of GM's better cars the Buick LaCrosse sold for about $23,000 here. In China the added import tariffs brought the price up to something like $73,000. Something has to give. If you want to build in China you can only own 49% of the company and need a Chinese partner. They welcome you coming in and teaching them and they really want you to let them have your know how. They then will drive you out in some manner and then vanquish you in your own markets with basically your own product.

The Chinese Renminbi is about 30% undervalued to the dollar. The Chinese have resisted for a long time revaluing the currency because they want their products to be very cheap to the rest of the world as well as dispatch their global competitors. They are taking a long view and will do what it takes to be back where they dominated global GDP like they did in 400 AD when they accounted for about a third of global GDP were the technology powerhouse of their time. What goes around comes around. I get a kick out of hearing folks referring to "emerging economies" when they are actually "re-emerging economies".

Now as China works very hard at pouring out scores of engineers for example they will certainly have the intellectual capital to truly innovate. The question is how do you replicate say the intellectual free wheeling of a Silcon Valley or a major research university like Stanford/Harvard/BU etc. Can a control Comunist political system foster that? With more and more exposure to the West amongst the population and freedom of thought there is coming a showdown.Can you keep these high education folks down on the farm after they've seen Paree? Or will China become a place that those capable of true innovation instead flee for another country for the freedom to innovate?

In more today terms I'm curious how do those who own horns like the Nirschl that is apparently being replicated in Brazil by Herr Nirschl himself and apparently to just as high standards - feel about that? I haven't played one of these horns but if they are just as good and sell for $4000 it would seem that the horn you payed $12,000 - 15,000 for just took a big haircut. If I owned one I wouldn't be happy. This question also would apply to 186 owners if these Chinese 186 clones are just as good it seems that a $6,500 Miraphone 186 that has a cloned match that is just as good can only merit a slight "heritage" premium". Again, they may not be there yet, but it appears they are getting closer and when they do it will be hard to recoup much of that $6500 I would think, if a just as good clone sells for $2000. I do think we are getting close to a global showdown and China will revalue the Renminbi, Chinese workers will start demanding better wages and working conditions all of which will force their prices higher to the west. There is going to be a major internal sorting out of the Grand Capitalism/Communism economy somewhere down the line which will have huge global implications and is going to be facinating to see what happens.

[TexTuba]

I think, ultimately, time will tell how these horns hold up. No one can answer that about these Chinese horns. Maybe they will hold up as long as Miraphones and other European horns that have been played for decades. Maybe they will fall apart in under five years...who really knows!

Personally, I don't care that they're made in China. I don't care that they're copying the 186. That kind of horn design has been around for a LONG time. My problem is the blatant copy of horns like the 1291. I will not reward a company that simply copies the homework of someone else.

[bort]

Personally, I don't care that they're made in China. I don't care that they're copying the 186. That kind of horn design has been around for a LONG time. My problem is the blatant copy of horns like the 1291. I will not reward a company that simply copies the homework of someone else.

Exactly.

[marzan122]

Notably, the Chinese are NOT copying much Yamaha stuff.

Yamaha instruments are being copied as well.

[Donn]

Never utter the phrases, "not so much", "yeah, right", "whatever", "you wish", or "that's what SHE said".

OK, so ... since enough has surely been said about Chinese tuba manufacture, may I ask where "not so much" came from? Been noticing this phrase for the last year or so, but the people who utter it won't identify the source when I ask. While we're at it, where did "I'm out of here" come from? (That would be ca. 1989 if I remember right.) I don't need to know these things, just curious.

I've worn the same pair of shoes daily for almost three years. They are made by SAS, which is the only company I know of that makes shoes entirely in the US. These shoes have been repaired three times now (including a new layer of rubber on the outer soles) and are still going strong.

Thanks for the tip! I see they have three widths up to size 15, which might work out for some of our larger footed colleagues. I'm able to pretty much clothe myself without Chinese stuff, too, main exception ordinarily being a couple pairs of motorcycle gloves. Some of the clothes I wear are ridiculously cheap if amortized. For example, I usually wear a fairly heavy wool shirt, and I bet you could wear one of those things 10 years - and I mean, 365 days X 10, so assuming you don't actually wear it in the summer and you actually have some other shirts, you'll have it for the rest of your life. My point is not that this is because it's made in the US (not sure they all were!), but rather that because it will last forever, the expense of first world labor to sew it together isn't that onerous. The problem with cheap stuff, is that it's expensive.

[averagejoe]

Somebody make a poll already.

[BavarianFanfare]

In regard to the cloned imported instruments from China, the Chinese can sell them to whoever they wish to, but I am not buying their stuff. I am not buying anything but an American, French, or German instrument, particularly when it comes to other instruments and tubas. Yes, they cost a lot of money! Recently, I purchased a new Armstrong (USA) 800B Sterling Silver Flute from the Woodwind & Brasswind. Before purchasing it, I considered buying a solid silver Gemeinhardt. You may ask why the Armstrong? Simple, the Armstrong is completely an American-made product, while the Gemeinhardt's headjoint is made in Elkhart, Indiana. The bodies of the Gemeinhardt are made in China, and finished stateside. The Armstrong also played a little better. Where it was made was a consideration when I made the purchase. I own two German tubas: a VMI 103 and a Miraphone 187. I have no regrets on those purchases or my other instruments. Finally, recently at TMEA, I tried a King (USA) 2341 and really liked it. Bloke had suggested in a post to a band director some time back that this was the only instrument he would recommend for middle school band for its durability, parts availability, sound, etc. I agree with Bloke. A King in my opinion, would be a far, far better buy than much of what is coming out of China, and less expensive than a European import. Please note, I do not work for Conn-Selmer, am not a Conn-Selmer dealer, and am just giving my personal opinion. Save your money and purchase something that will last! Remember the Yugo automobiles! They did not stay around long. They were cheap and disposable!

[cjk]

I don't mean to "brag" when saying this, but...

I haven't bought any "new" clothing in years. On the few occasions that I have purchased clothes, I have shopped at thrift stores (as buying second-hand does not support the existing clothing manufacturers, and does not require any new raw materials).

I've worn the same pair of shoes daily for almost three years. They are made by SAS, which is the only company I know of that makes shoes entirely in the US. These shoes have been repaired three times now (including a new layer of rubber on the outer soles) and are still going strong.

I try to avoid Wal-Mart and Target if at all possible. Generally, when I have to buy anything(besides food), I try to buy second-hand as much as possible (for the same reasons as above)--this includes music-related purchases (instruments, mouthpieces, etc.). Most importantly, I try to buy as little as possible in the first place.

I've had the same cell phone for six years, and the same computer for almost five. I don't plan to replace them until they are no longer operable. I haven't watched TV in almost six years, and I try to use electronics as little as possible (though, the internet is tricky--why am I typing this, after all? ). I have no iPod, portable CD player, PDA, etc.

In short, I do think about these things, and try to implement my thinking into my everyday life. There is always MUCH more that I could do...but there is a difference between taking continual "baby steps" and doing nothing at all (much less, not even considering these sort of things).

I am constantly aware of my shortcomings and failings. That is why these things bother me so much.

Humbly,

Sam F.

Sounds like college.

[Bob Kolada]

Some of these "I'm thriftier than you" arguments are getting mildly pathetic. I may wear clothes until they are somewhat worn (have not bought a new pair of pants in years), but not until they wear out.

[The Big Ben]

Maybe one of you thriftmeisters can answer a question for me:

I saw packages of recycled toilet paper in the grocery store this afternoon.

How do they make it sanitary?

Jeff "Two squares should be more than enough" Benedict

[GC]

This thread has had more serious thought and passionate discourse than any thread I've seen lately. I hope this is the start of a trend. And yes, I may buy one of the Besson 981 clones. Or not.

If someone would make a clone of the Conn Monster Eb with improved response and intonation, I'd buy one in an instant.

[k001k47]

Most top of the line electronics are manufactured in China.

Maybe when cheap BATs¹ start coming in from China everyone will be happy.






_______________________________________________________________________
¹BAT must have four button thingies and a lever rotating thingy and have a "world class sound"

[rocksanddirt]

snip
Also, to cjk and bloke, please to not attack me personally. If you disagree with me, GREAT! However, for a truly productive discussion, please confront my arguments, not my person. I will try to do the same.

Regards,

Sam F.

Yer gonna break the innernets with an attitude like that mr. /bad sarcasm.

[Bob Kolada]

If someone would make a clone of the Conn Monster Eb with improved response and intonation, I'd buy one in an instant.

I'd think the Kanstul Eb (though technically a York copy) would fit that bill. Too bad it runs over $7000.... I think I'll stick to my Giant or biding my time for another cheap 3400. It's not really the same thing but is kinda the same concept.
FWIW, my GIANT has great response and not-too-bad intonation.

[WakinAZ]

Didn't the venerable, and now "legitimate", Yamaha start out as a house of clones of Alex-inspired and Meinl-Weston tubas and Besson euphs? I realize TubeNet is not exactly a manufacturer sponsored Yammie fan club anyway. Serves 'em right to have Weril, et al copying their copies.
(If this has been addressed already, forgive me. I didn't feel like reading all 6 pages so far - lazy.) Quite the hot topic with 6 pages in one day.

Eric "who used to feel the same as the OP, but who realized his loyalties were not being rewarded" L.

[Wyvern]

I am not buying anything but an American, French, or German instrument, particularly when it comes to other instruments and tubas.

What have us British done to upset you???

who used to feel the same as the OP, but who realized his loyalties were not being rewarded

I used to feel the same until I had a Chinese girlfriend (now fiancé) meaning I have spent a lot of time in China and have seen how things are there more from an insiders viewpoint. The normal people are kind, honest and hard working - but there is an enormous wealth gap to the (greedy?) factory owners who are raking in the millions. In some ways it is like things must have been in the Europe 150 years ago.

I do think it off to apparently copy a newish model like the 1291, but that is really Miraphone's concern and not the tuba buyer who just wants a good playing instrument for an affordable price. If future competition means new models are not developed, then that would not be so awful - there are already so many wonderful models out there to choose from that for most of us it is practice we need to improve - not a new tuba. I tend to think if the Chinese started producing York CC and Holton 345 BBb BAT clones at an affordable price - a lot of people would have a change of heart?

I admire those people which are thrifty in their purchases, as that is what is needed from all of us for the good of the environment - the world has finite resources. I pity future generations who experience once plentiful minerals and fuels running out just because people today keep on wanting new and more of everything all the time

[funkhoss]

Sam,

I live about like you do, but it is my WALLET (and not my "conscience") that instructs me to do this.

bloke "who just bought a REALLY nice Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo (as nice as any of bloke's own cars) for my one-a-year car-eating daughter for $1350, and who wears work jeans and work shirts until the rot away in the washing machine"

Dear bloke,

You're right: the argument from economics is always much more convincing than the arguments from ethics. However, it's hard sometimes to get people to buy even that argument, as "thrift" is no longer valued in our society.

BTW, nice picture!

Sam "who is on the lookout for a good used Geo Metro--50+ mpg and CHEAP!"

[funkhoss]

Sounds like college.

What is this comment supposed to mean? Can you explain it to me?

If it is meant to imply that I am a naive "college student," that is not a very good characterization of where I am in life at the moment. I am married and I am a graduate student (not in music, though ).

Sam F.

[The Big Ben]

Sounds like college.

What is this comment supposed to mean? Can you explain it to me?

If it is meant to imply that I am a naive "college student," that is not a very good characterization of where I am in life at the moment. I am married and I am a graduate student (not in music, though ).

Some of us lived like that in college. We have more money now. Understand?