EEb as do-it-all horn?

[Michael Grant]

[quote="Michael Grant"]Like many have said before me on this post, the EEb works fine as an only horn. I agree that for the big stuff (large orchestra and large orchestral works, etc.) a contra-bass is needed (CC or BBb) but I don't play in anything that would require something that large. I use the Willson 3400 EEb. It works well for everything I play in or would ever play.

After thinking this over and reading some of the other posts, I would like to further elaborate. I answered Mojo's question based on my own experience and needs. When I have played in concert bands, brass bands, etc., there was always the larger contrabass-tuba beside me. If I were playing by myself, my EEb probably would not cut it. It does not have the breadth and fullness in the low register needed to support a "large" ensemble. When playing in the Michigan Chamber Brass, I used the EEb. But when we played pieces that required two tubas, the guy on my right was always playing a contrabass horn. Even on Liturgical Fanfares (which calls for one tuba), when the brass really let loose at the end, the Willson was not enough. We used two horns. So, to "re-answer" the question:

A EEb works for me as my only tuba. But, if I played in an orchestra (any orchestra. Really, even a small one. Any orchestra. Seriously, any orchestra would be fine. Just call, I'll answer.) or a concert group where I was the only tubist, I feel a 4/4 CC or BBb would be a necessity. IMO, if you are a professional tubist, then you will need more than one horn. Owning only one (especially an EEb or F or small CC/BBb) is a handicap. So, if I were a pro I would have a 4/4 horn in addition to my EEb at the very least. Actually, since my EEb is large, I would go for a 5/4.

Anyway, as an only tuba? I recant my earlier statement and now say a 4/4 CC or BBb.

[J.c. Sherman]

I agree Michael.

In a Band setting, where you're in the dual role of Tuba and Bass section, an Eb - by itself - is not quite enough for my tastes for anything but the smallest bands. However, the bands I play with in Cleveland all assume I'm comin' with the Eb, and everyone brings howitzers. It's a great balance - 1 tuba on top divisi (me), Bazookas on the bottom. Solos are whichever is appropriate for the lick.

A divisi Eb/BAT section can be very, very satisfying... and I keep being hired, so I guess it works for the conductors too

J.c.S.

[opus37]

I agree with the last two posts. An EEb by itself in a large band or orchestra is a bit weak. For quintet, solo, small groups or as part of a tuba section, it is a do it all/very welcome horn. It all comes down to your playing situation. A pro is very likely to get into the situations on having to lead or be the only horn. Thus a stable of horns is more commonly needed. Us hobbyists tend to be in situations where a EEb can handle our needs satisfactorily.

[Wyvern]

In the UK it is quite common for concert and military bands to just have pair of EEb 19 inch compensated tubas. I have just played gig today with two of us on EEb for band of 28 and it worked fine, although I do like the breath a CC/BBb adds

[J.c. Sherman]

In the UK it is quite common for concert and military bands to just have pair of EEb 19 inch compensated tubas. I have just played gig today with two of us on EEb for band of 28 and it worked fine, although I do like the breath a CC/BBb adds

I agree... two would be sufficient (had that a couple times in college... some fellow students liked my Imperial enough to get their own ; ) For a giant band where two to three additional tubas are needed, best to have at least one be a BAT; they have their place.

[sloan]

I can't decide between a CC and an Eb.

I think I need a compromise solution.

Do you recommend a D or a Db?

[J.c. Sherman]

I can't decide between a CC and an Eb.

I think I need a compromise solution.

Do you recommend a D or a Db?

I don't think my D has much more presence than an Eb ; )

[joh_tuba]

D is better for playing in sharp keys and therefore is an orchestra instrument.
Db is better for flat keys and band.

[muttenstrudel]

A divisi Eb/BAT section can be very, very satisfying...

It's not exactly the same but in most German wind bands – especially in the South – it is common to have one, two, three BBb contrabasses and one or two Fs to mostly double the bass line up an octave. This way you get the fat bottom and a nice and clearly contoured upper octave bass line. Particularly while playing outside whithout amplification you actually can HEAR a bass line and not only an undefined oompah-oompah mumble sound. And THEN it is really fun to play!
In other words: An EEb can define a nice hearable bass line as well as an F. but for the fat bottom sound I think a contrabass is right choice.

[tuba.bobby]

York Preference Eb Tuba was a very nice acquaintance...

Besson (already then owned by courtois) bought them just to put'em out of business

Better than 981 in every aspect....IMHO

The york is a nice instrument, it has a silky sound that the Besson doesn't, no doubt something to do with its larger bore, but I do miss that clean sound of a 981...

[Lectron]

If it wasn't due to my deep involvement in Brass Bands, I'd have to say a C is the do it all horn.

Problem is all the 'funny fingering' as a lot tends to be written in rather flat keys
Ab and Gb not unusual. Not saying it can't be done, but intonation gets a tad
challenging

[Wyvern]

Which is the best 'do-it-all horn' very much depends on the nature of the majority of your playing. The low register will be more open and easier with CC, but at the same time high register will be more secure on EEb.

I have just done a comparison recording playing the same low excerpt on 6/4 CC, EEb and 4/4 CC and was amazed listening back how full the Eb actually sounded down low, although when playing it felt more difficult.

I enjoy playing CC a lot, but would not want to play say Bydlo, or the Vaughan Williams using such, but an EEb can be used to play virtually anything, even Wagner Ring - I have done so in the past before I had CC.

So in my (British) opinion the EEb is the best 'do-it-all horn' - although better still to have choice to choose the most appropriate tuba for the job - which is (if you will excuses the commercial) where Chinese tubas come in, allowing players to have a choice of horns without breaking the bank!

[tuba.bobby]

Didn't Nigel Seaman do everything on his Eb? As a professional?

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I have just done a comparison recording playing the same low excerpt on 6/4 CC, EEb and 4/4 CC and was amazed listening back how full the Eb actually sounded down low, although when playing it felt more difficult.

I think that if you listen to all three instruments played solo, they could well seem close, when there is nothing else to compare them to. The problem (for me) is when playing in a large ensemble (as in a concert band), on an 983 Eb (as the only tuba), with other LOUD instruments competing to be heard, I sometimes feel the output is inadequate.

I do think that it is really impossible to have ONE do-it-all horn, because of all of the diverse musical situations we can find ourselves in. If you play mostly large, and medium ensembles, a 4/4 CC/BBb is probably the best choice. If you play mostly quintet, a small CC, F, or an Eb would be good choice. If you play mostly solos (How many of us qualify for THAT?), then an Eb or F is probably best.

[Wyvern]

Didn't Nigel Seaman do everything on his Eb? As a professional?

I believe he did. Mark Carter (Mr.Tuba) told me he try to persuade him to get a CC, but Nigel said something like no conductor had ever said the sound of his EEb was not enough, so he did not see the reason to add a CC.

And for American friends who may not know, Nigel Seaman was Principal tuba in the BBC National Orchestra of Wales for 33 years

[Steve Inman]

I play in a good amateur quintet that occasionally gets paid for our services. I play in civic theater orchestras, community band and a church orchestra. I play in a 12-piece brass ensemble around Christmas time.

My experience has been primarily with a 186-4UCC, a Besson 983Eb, a couple of small F's (Amati 6V and 621), the Conn 56J CC and the Yamaha YEB-381 (5V) Eb.

I found:

3/4 F's seemed too small for my quintet.
186 worked well for everything I played, but was more work in the higher quintet passages.
I didn't like the air resistance from the 983, or from any compensating Eb I ever tried, which made this horn too much work for me in the lower register.
The Conn 56J works well, but I'd prefer a 52J for quintet, I believe.
The Yamaha Eb works very well in quintet, and can be heard in any of the groups I play with. It is easier in the upper register than my CC tubas have been, but takes more work to get a big sound with more than about two ledger lines below the staff. Although the Eb tubas project well enough to be heard, I don't believe they are adequate for the breadth/depth of sound that I would like to have in the larger groups I play in. (disclaimer -- I don't believe I play particularly loudly / powerfully)

As there are a few other tubas I've owned in the past that are not on the above list, I believe that if there was an easy-to-play*, single, do-it-all tuba, I would have found it by now. For those who are not troubled by the compensating Eb's low register "feel", the 981 might be the closest Eb to a do-it-all tuba. The 2040/5 would be MY personal choice for this horn, unless I could find a well-in-tune 4V monster Eb and add a 5th valve to it.
(*the key to this discussion, imo)

I think a very few Eb tubas might work as a one-tuba solution. But I think you'll probably find that also owning a contrabass tuba will make playing with larger groups more enjoyable, due to less work needed to generate a bigger sound, and in playing pieces with more low register passages.

My experience, fwiw...

[UDELBR]

This used to be one of Steve's Eb tubas (although he doesn't list it in his post): an HN White from the year zero.



And this is what it turned into:



Probably the closest thing to an all-around Eb I could imagine. 50cm bell, 19mm valve set (ex-Hirsbrunner). I've used it for Tchaikovsky symphonies without complaint. Eb can be an all-around instrument.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I think that, if you think about it, there is a significant difference between playing a tuba in an orchestra, and a concert band (I can not speak to a brass band).

Being able to balance a reasonably good brass section of an orchestra (10 players), is a lot different than trying to lay down a bass line, that can be heard with an ensemble that has 8 trombones, 6 saxophones, 12 trumpets, and 4-5 percussionists!

While an orchestra can also get loud, most of the instruments that share the stage with you, produce a relatively transparent sound, when compared to the brass instruments.

[Bob Kolada]

This used to be one of Steve's Eb tubas (although he doesn't list it in his post): an HN White from the year zero.

That's gotta have been the cleanest 100+ year old tuba ever; you monster!!

Off to see if I can grab a valveless 981 copy somewhere!

[Steve Inman]

This used to be one of Steve's Eb tubas (although he doesn't list it in his post): an HN White from the year zero.



And this is what it turned into:



Probably the closest thing to an all-around Eb I could imagine. 50cm bell, 19mm valve set (ex-Hirsbrunner). I've used it for Tchaikovsky symphonies without complaint. Eb can be an all-around instrument.

Intriguing... more, please.

Indeed -- referred to as merely "Mr. White" between Uncle Beer and I. I found this tuba in Indianapolis close to 20 years ago, and used it as my first transitional horn between BBb and Eb. But alas, it was only a 3V Eb, I didn't know Sam Gnagey at the time, and Sam was only starting into his tuba business back then. Evidently, this old H.N. White has a desirable main bugle shape, and I somehow ended up in email conversation with Carl about this horn, which was eventually sold and shipped to The Netherlands, where he worked his magic on it. IIRC, he first converted it to CC, but liked it better as an Eb, so he converted it back. THIS is what I think of when I talk about a 5V Monster Eb being the ideal one-tuba solution!