4 valve BBb's vs 5 valve CC's

[Bob Kolada]

2J's and Weril 680/1's seem pretty popular amongst trombone players doing Broadway shows. On the Conns, and possibly the Werils, you can flat tune the 4th and play chromatically down to the pedal.

[PMeuph]

Rick "wondering if the MD's complaint was that the sound was bright when it was really 25 cents sharp" Denney

The conductor of the brass band I play with uses the word "bright" instead of sharp. Maybe it's because he's British...

....Otherwise noting that there's probably a lot of truth in your statement...

[J.c. Sherman]

It occurs to me after scratching my head on this topic that probably the reason the MDs want a “contrabass” sound is because they've run across too many doublers who sound like they are doubling... i.e. who play with a too-brilliant tone and/or on a "comfortable" mouthpiece.

I'd wager high money that those same MDs wouldn't know a contrabass tuba from a rototiller, let alone from a large Eb bass. The OP plays Eb, hence a few suggestions here to stick with what he knows already. Adding another fingering system, the sight-reading on one may be a little inhabitual for the OP (just guessing, not accusing). If I'm sight-reading a gig, while I can and sometimes do use a CC or BBb (depends on the size of the section/ensemble) I will preferably show up with an Eb... "home base (bass?)" for me.

Play with a good, broad tuba tone, nail the part, and no one will care if what key you're playing. Bring a BAT and you're liable to get "the hand" and the ire of the MD.

Just sayin'

J.c.S.

[Bob Kolada]

For a trombonist who is a "tuba doubler", I believe (were buying opportunities and/or pricing not issues) I would recommend a "new style" King model 2341 BBb and "anything-that-offers-a-good-sound-that-is-the-size-of-a-Bach-25-or-larger" for a mouthpiece.

How is the low C on them? Low D and Db are ok, if a bit death star-ish, on 56J's.

[BMadsen]

Well, I can't speak about the MD's, but the player told me that he has sent several players that he feels are excellent tuba doublers to sub his show, and all the Eb and F players have not been asked back (the MD has told him they didn't cut it). I don't know if that would apply to all MD's of all shows, but this player told me the sound concept on Broadway in general is contrabass and that I'd be better served with 4/4 contrabass tuba. He felt that with a bit more work and a contrabass tuba, he could call me (exact quote "if you get a CC or BBb now, I'd like to hear you again in the fall as a potential sub"). That, in and of itself, warrants the switch for me.

5 valves are my preference, for the most part, stemming from the other piece of advice from this player who said "make sure the full range is playable." From this forum (and an eventual response from the player I took a lesson with), it sounds like there are work-around solutions for 4 valve horns, but they are more work to figure out. I got enough work learning a new key, mastering tuba, and keeping up my skills on bass bone, tenor bone (large and small), and euphonium.

As for the adjustment, once I'm comfortable on C, I don't plan on keeping my Eb - in fact, I need the money from that sale to help pay for this tuba (it's the only way I can afford the switch). All the work I am opening up with my tuba double can be done on a 4/4 C tuba. If there was a paying brass band scene here I might consider it, but there isn't (at least not that I'm aware of).

I truly wish price were no issue, but, I'm a young freelance musician. 5-10 years from now I anticipate I'll be making much more than I am now. But, I've consulted with my teacher and my wife, and we all agree now is the time to make the investment - there are still not a lot of doublers who can play the full range of low brass, and by getting myself to that point, I can position myself well for the future of the industry here in the city. Bruce Bonvissuto told me it's been moving that way for awhile - since he came on the scene, and that it's only accelerating.

[toobagrowl]

Well, I can't speak about the MD's, but the player told me that he has sent several players that he feels are excellent tuba doublers to sub his show, and all the Eb and F players have not been asked back (the MD has told him they didn't cut it). I don't know if that would apply to all MD's of all shows, but this player told me the sound concept on Broadway in general is contrabass and that I'd be better served with 4/4 contrabass tuba. He felt that with a bit more work and a contrabass tuba, he could call me (exact quote "if you get a CC or BBb now, I'd like to hear you again in the fall as a potential sub"). That, in and of itself, warrants the switch for me.

5 valves are my preference, for the most part, stemming from the other piece of advice from this player who said "make sure the full range is playable." From this forum (and an eventual response from the player I took a lesson with), it sounds like there are work-around solutions for 4 valve horns, but they are more work to figure out. I got enough work learning a new key, mastering tuba, and keeping up my skills on bass bone, tenor bone (large and small), and euphonium.

As for the adjustment, once I'm comfortable on C, I don't plan on keeping my Eb - in fact, I need the money from that sale to help pay for this tuba (it's the only way I can afford the switch). All the work I am opening up with my tuba double can be done on a 4/4 C tuba. If there was a paying brass band scene here I might consider it, but there isn't (at least not that I'm aware of).

I truly wish price were no issue, but, I'm a young freelance musician. 5-10 years from now I anticipate I'll be making much more than I am now. But, I've consulted with my teacher and my wife, and we all agree now is the time to make the investment - there are still not a lot of doublers who can play the full range of low brass, and by getting myself to that point, I can position myself well for the future of the industry here in the city. Bruce Bonvissuto told me it's been moving that way for awhile - since he came on the scene, and that it's only accelerating.

PM sent.

[Lectron]

But they still don't even come close to the thickness/darkness/fullness in sound of my large rotary CC and BBb tubas.

The old York monster Eb tubas are even fluffier/lighter/more buoyant in sound than the old Holton monster Eb's, so it does not surprise me that it may sound too bright for Broadway work. The MD may prefer a darker rotary contrabass sound.

^^^That

Well so far I haven't tried any Ebs and Fs that can compare, but god knows I want one

An Eb, thou it had same size bell, would have to add 29.5" of straight tube to play a low C while the CC tuba would use that same length of tapered area.

IOW..The Eb would act as a more cylindricality bore vs. the CCs more conicality bore.
They would have to sound different, if if the MD prefers the contra bass sound,
that can not be obtained with an F of Eb. Not even graduated bore and dependent
5th & 6th

Wow...Self quoting AND bad English
Still on vacation without a tuba

[Lingon]

...An Eb, thou it had same size bell, would have to add 29.5" of straight tube to play a low C while the CC tuba would use that same length of tapered area...

Ähum, what about that low C, that is played on the open horn with a CC instrument, if you use a BBb tuba?

[Lectron]

...An Eb, thou it had same size bell, would have to add 29.5" of straight tube to play a low C while the CC tuba would use that same length of tapered area...

Ähum, what about that low C, that is played on the open horn with a CC instrument, if you use a BBb tuba?

Darn..Had to be a swede messing up for me here

K...The BBb adds ~69.3" of straight plumming, but it still has a longer conicality bore than the CC.

Like on a 6V F..You would usually prefer the sound of 1-2-3-4-5-6 on the pedal F than the open

[Lingon]

...Darn..Had to be a swede messing up for me here ...

Hehe, always that Sweden-Norway thing.

...Like on a 6V F..You would usually prefer the sound of 1-2-3-4-5-6 on the pedal F than the open ...

Perfect for Mahler 1.

[BMadsen]

Thought I would provide an update here, since I got a lot of great advice.

I saw the Musica tuba (B&S CC stencil horn) on eBay (via tubenet) over the weekend, and also saw that it had no offer history, so I had a feeling it would be there after my visit today (Monday). I went down to Dillon's, had a chat with Matt and many toots on several tubas (a couple I could afford, many I couldn't). Of the ones I tried and couldn't afford (a Cerveny C, Mira 192, and Mira 1291, Mira 186), I fell in love with the Miraphone 1291 C - fantastic horn. Seems like a great all-around horn, very rich, slots incredibly well, easy to play, big sound that can play a bit smaller with a smaller mouthpiece - just had a blast playing it. A friend of mine asked why I wasn't buying that, until I showed him the price. If I had $10k for a purchase, I would have walked out with that horn in a heartbeat. However, I had $3k, and that was pushing it, so I tried a couple of horns. Besson Bb compensator wasn't my cup of tea - blew a bit stuffy, and I didn't dig the sound. They have the 1291 Bb copy (it's not on the website, but they had a Dillon-branded one) - it blows huge compared to the Mira 1291 C. I couldn't get away with that in a quintet, and it used a lot more air than the 1291 C - it would take a lot of work for me to be able to handle that horn well. I also tried the Mira 186 copy... and walked out with it. I know, some of you are very anti-chinese tuba, but a couple of words here. Matt tweaks them after arrival - I got to play an untweaked and tweaked version, and there was definitely a major difference. The untweaked sounded more diffuse, didn't slot well in the low register, and took more effort to play well. Whatever he does to tweak it makes the extra money worth it. Plus, Dillon's stands behind their product, and cares for their customers, so issues of longevity are less of a concern because I know they'll help me out in the long run.

We talked about the Musica, and he had a lot of positive things to say, but in the end, it's like any horn bought without trying. I've played plenty of bad examples of horns that are good horns. The Musica is a good horn, and looked good in the photos, but you can't judge a horn by how it looks - it's about what comes out of the bell and how easy it is to make what comes out of the bell sound good that matters.

Chinese or not, what matters is sound and quality of construction (built to last). Matt is confident they are built to last, and from all I can tell, he is an honest guy. The sound was great - a little less rich than the 186, but $6k less rich? Not by a long shot. If the difference had been a grand, I would have risked the ire of my wife. I can already tell this horn, sound-wise, will be great for the work I'm seeking. Now I just have to learn to play in C. Goin' to the woodshed for some serious work tomorrow.....