regional ITEA fees - charged to exhibitors

[Jay Bertolet]

Having been on both sides of this equation (both clinician and conference organizer) I can see both sides of the argument. If a conference organizer asked me to pay a fee over and above my travel costs to be a clinician at their conference, the answer would almost certainly be no. As a conference organizer, I know that the top artists demand a fee for their participation. The conference we organized down here had Arnold Jacobs, Ron Bishop, Fritz Kaenzig, and Joe Dollard. Those guys don't come cheap nor do they need to pad any sort of resume by doing our conference. With conference participants screaming bloody murder about the conference attendance fees, where does the money come from to pay for everything needed? We were lucky to have sponsors that provided nearly free access to facilities, plus other financial donors that gave us enough money to go forward. Having been in the position of finding the money needed for a conference, I know you are looking everywhere for help.

I think those that posted earlier about the rise of the internet as a free market are very close to the root of the problem. Previously, a conference was one of the few places you could go (other than the less than 5 mass retailers back then) to try out and purchase some of these horns or even see them. I think people now use exhibitors at conferences as a place to try horns out but they don't usually buy there. They take the information gathered and then find the best price online.

I don't have a solution to the problem, someone much smarter than me will have to find that. But I suspect that the free market system will eventually sort itself out and when the exhibitors find that conference presence isn't such a great thing for their business, they'll stop attending. At that point conference organizers will be at a crossroads where they will be forced to find the money for the conference from another source.

[JCalkin]

I have heard one musician say that, before the internet, they used to do a large percentage of their buying at conference exhibits, where they could see sheet music, CD's mouthpieces, instruments in person, compare, and purchase. The musician continued, saying that because of the internet and free shipping offered these days, that they have much less incentive to go to exhibit halls at conferences and purchase - shop around, maybe, but not purchase. What do you folks think?

And what's worse, many people "shop around" at conferences, then go home and hop online to find the lowest prices on stuff, meaning many who attend conferences as vendors are actually offering free advertising for their competitors.

I tend to buy from the exhibitors I meet at conferences, if not there on the spot, then later via phone or internet for that reason. If I try a horn at a Dillon booth but music123.whatever offers it for less, I'll still buy from Dillon because I will ALWAYS pay more for good customer service.

[Jay Bertolet]

Hey Joe,

Agreed. Most of the regional conferences at that time were staffed not by the superstar types but by more local (not any less spectacular) guys. The conference we organized here was probably the exception rather than the rule. If travel expenses can be adequately controlled, I think clinicians would be more inclined to your ideas instead of extracting a fee for their presence. Limiting clinicians to local folks makes sense financially but it might hurt attendance. Not because those folks aren't worth coming to see but because they are already local and accessible. The big draw for these conferences is when you bring in folks who are extremely well known and not in the local area. Our conference had over 150 attendees, IIRC, so our clinicians delivered in that regard.

Maybe we all should be taking grant writing courses to help fund these things!!!

[bigbob]

WOW!! You guys really spend a lot on a space!! I go to ACC shows High end stuff and it only costs me 400 but I have paid up to 700..a national show I have to be "juried" in even though I'm a juried member..(no guarentee to get in show)then I have to be there no reps..<s>I make everything talk about a gamble<s>I carry my own tables and display cases tent lighting I do pay for electric sometimes.....your shows seem way too high!! A few shows I attended only charged us a persentige for what we sold of course you had to open up your books<s> Lower rates more exibitors..I cant get over that not only do you pay for space but everything else!! Bummer..Think they would go for a small percentige??(of course people have been known to cheat<s>)..anyway sorry to interupt just a comment from the peanut gallery<s>....BB

[Brian C]

Honest curiosity here... how much (if any) of the exhibitor fees, travel expenses, etc. for this are tax-deductible as business expenses?

To deduct expenses from a taxable income, one must first have a taxable income...and enough of an income to itemize.

Bloke,

That is only partially true. If you have a net loss from self-employment, you can carryover the loss to years where you have income. (This is subject to certain limitations and is true also for corporations.) You must deduct business expenses to arrive at your self-employment income, even if it results in a net loss. It may not benefit you (in that particular year), but you have to deduct those expenses. (This rule is different for corporations.) Itemizing is irrelevant to whether you can deduct a net loss from self-employment. What is relevant is having enough income (perhaps spousal income if MFJ), to offset the loss.

I do have a question of my own: Why can't you guys operate like tool sellers at auto repair shops/dealerships? In other words, schedule an appointment to set up a display at a university and haul your merchandise down there for try-outs/sales?

[brianf]

Now this thread seems to be going to the subject of how to pay for a regional. Let's face it, a regional is not an ITEC. The international tuba world does not meet at a regional - that is why there are regionals then ITEC's.

A university tuba studio comes to the regional, their ensemble plays a few pieces, their teacher may play as part of a recital, maybe a student or two enters a competition, everyone looks at the exhibits and they all get drunk with those from other studios - it's a good road trip - the teacher reports back to their university that they did something in the tuba world and everyone is happy. For a weekend warrior, they come in, meet others, play in a mass ensemble and look at the exhibits. An ITEC should be the best of the best not taking every tuba ensemble that wants to come (just to spike enrollment), have competion finals (inviting regional winners) and awarding monetary prizes. Recitals by international players and generally a meeting of the international tuba world.

From a financial aspect, these are two different ballgames. The tuba world only uses university facilities which a university showcases themselves. For example look at the University of Denver which hosted an ITEC, the ITG and IHS and maybe other instruments in the past few years. The cost was nothing or almost nothing. Then there are the artist's fees. The National Flute Association refuses to pay anyone and has a rule that any person can only appear once every three years to keep each show from having the same people year after year. I remember one year they were in Chicago and wanted Arnold Jacobs. He gave them a reduced fee and they turned him down. He did the Northwestern University ITEC for nothing out of loyalty for his instrument but they had to pay for his hotel. This brings up another point, who pays the expenses for an artist? Many times they are sponsored by a company who is recognized. A university may sponsor their teacher. Many times a company will sponsor a lecture, very common at the flute convention and I have done a ton of Jacobs lectures at various shows paying my own way. In my case, I charge anything and everything on an airline credit card and use milage to travel to shows. Why not solicit airline and hotel rewards from some friends of the tuba?

What I am getting to is that you have to be creative how to pay for a show. A regional is not an ITEC and should not cost as much. You have heard from a number of exhibitors - they are losing at each show and are dropping the number of shows they attend. Regionals seem to have competions with cash prizes to draw students in. Why? If not having the honor of being declared a winner, a comment sheet from judges with the possibility of going to an ITEC for a prize is not enough of an incentive to come, stay home. These prizes take away money needed in other areas and keeps sponsors from nickel and diming the exhibitors.

Finally, do something encourage the future of brass music, the micropublishers. A few years ago I worked a computer show for my brother. They had all the big exhibitors but in the back they had 8 foot tables where really small guys could pay for a full table or half table at a bargai basement rate to exhibit. These people need to be encouraged!

[sloan]

I agree that it seems some of these events gouge exhibitors. Academics who run a lot of them have greatly inflated ideas of how much exhibitors make off them. Of course many academics don't understand how the real world really works (especially the business world) since they never have to meet a payroll etc.

Thanks for my laugh of the day.

[sloan]

It seems to me that this thread is a repeat of a thread from yesteryear. Same instigator, same result.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.

[BVD Press]

It seems to me that this thread is a repeat of a thread from yesteryear.

Got a link? I am always curious how opinions change over the years. Either from experience, circumstances or sometimes just age...

[Mark]

I agree that it seems some of these events gouge exhibitors. Academics who run a lot of them have greatly inflated ideas of how much exhibitors make off them. Of course many academics don't understand how the real world really works (especially the business world) since they never have to meet a payroll etc.

Thanks for my laugh of the day.

This story is entirely pertinent to this thread. One of my physical chemistry professors had been a student of Niels Bohr. This professor, who will remain nameless for the upcoming reason, liked to tell us how he had to get Bohr soft drinks because Bohr could not learn how to operate the soft drink machine at the institute. This professor thought that was funny. Later this same professor had to ask my class how many inches were in a foot. He didn’t know.