iiipopes wrote:I appreciate that there are those of you who have Yamaha instruments that have served well for you. In addition to my observations, my tech tells me that, at least with regard to school instruments, that the vast majority of his work is re-rounding Yamaha piston casings and fixing broken valve guides, taking more time than repairs on all other brands of instruments put together.
Maybe it's because so many school Yamahas are 321's with narrowish bell flares. They are not stable on their bells, so they fall over. And all it takes is a slight tweak on the outer branch of a top-action tuba to bind the valves. Usually not a valve problem, and probably reseting the braces is all that is required to let them relax back into their correct shape.
I haven't played nearly as many notes as has Wade, but my 621 F's valves have never needed rebuilding. I did polish them once, and they are picky about valve oil. Personally, I think they are set up too tight, like trumpet valves, when tubas are subject to general stress beyond that of instruments. My Holton valves are more finiky, though, and require more frequently cleaning and care.
Yamaha brass is indeed a little soft. Mine is not nearly as soft as my old Sanders/Cerveny was, but it's easier to dent than my other tubas. But unlike those other tubas, Yamaha supplies them in a hard case.
Rick "whose Yamaha F tuba was a first-batch production, #72, older than Wade's, and did service for a year as a show-circuit demonstrator before coming to me" Denney
Rick Denney wrote:Maybe it's because so many school Yamahas are 321's with narrowish bell flares. They are not stable on their bells, so they fall over. And all it takes is a slight tweak on the outer branch of a top-action tuba to bind the valves. Usually not a valve problem, and probably resetting the braces is all that is required to let them relax back into their correct shape.
Indeed. Everyone knows the 321 is a copy of the Besson 17-inch "New Standard." So just as almost every Besson with the 17-inch bell has the tell-tale flat spot on the opposite bottom bow from falling over, so do these tubas. But it's more than that.
For example, a couple of years ago we had some guest student tuba players sit in with us for the Memorial Day gig. Every one of them had a 321, and every one of them were constantly spinning valves to keep them aligned to cope with disintegrated valve guides. And these were all privately taught students of one of the band members, and had done their best to take care of their school owned instruments, which were obviously fairly new. And it's not just that the brass is soft, or that there is too much OCD by Yamaha management about valve clearances from the factory, but the valve casings are too thin. Thicker valve casings with a little more zinc in the mix and reengineered valve guides would go a long way to make these tubas more durable.
iiipopes wrote:For example, a couple of years ago we had some guest student tuba players sit in with us for the Memorial Day gig. Every one of them had a 321, and every one of them were constantly spinning valves to keep them aligned to cope with disintegrated valve guides. And these were all privately taught students of one of the band members, and had done their best to take care of their school owned instruments, which were obviously fairly new. And it's not just that the brass is soft, or that there is too much OCD by Yamaha management about valve clearances from the factory, but the valve casings are too thin. Thicker valve casings with a little more zinc in the mix and reengineered valve guides would go a long way to make these tubas more durable.
The casings don't seem any thinner than my other tubas.
More zinc? That would not make them stronger, or stiffer, or less likely to wear against Monel pistons.
The valve guides used on my Yamaha tuba are plastic tacquets that are clamped under the stem. I did change mine on my Yamaha, and I keep a spare set in my case. Yamaha started using a different material in 1991 or so, soon after the YFB-621 came out, and the newer material seems to be polyethylene and a bit waxier. Those have not worn severely in the 20+ years since.
But I can change out the valve guide on a Yamaha valve in a minute, and the plastic guide will not wear a taper into the guide slot on the casing. High-end valves come with nylon guides these days, because they last just as long and they are quieter. They do require a bit more care. The usual school-kid idiotic move is to push the valve into the casing hard, and turn it until the guide finds the slot. That will leave the bottom edge of the guide dog-eared, and it will stick. This is true for pro-quality tubas that have nylon valve guides, too. But when those wear, replacements have to be specially fitted.
I think your technician is making judgements based on highly abused school instruments. There is no brand that can withstand that sort of abuse. Miraphone valves will also stick if the outer branch is tweaked too much, and when those rotary valves stick (or the paddle assembly gets broken off), it's a major repair.
Rick Denney wrote:Maybe it's because so many school Yamahas are 321's with narrowish bell flares. They are not stable on their bells, so they fall over. And all it takes is a slight tweak on the outer branch of a top-action tuba to bind the valves. Usually not a valve problem, and probably resetting the braces is all that is required to let them relax back into their correct shape.
Indeed. Everyone knows the 321 is a copy of the Besson 17-inch "New Standard." So just as almost every Besson with the 17-inch bell has the tell-tale flat spot on the opposite bottom bow from falling over, so do these tubas. But it's more than that.
For example, a couple of years ago we had some guest student tuba players sit in with us for the Memorial Day gig. Every one of them had a 321, and every one of them were constantly spinning valves to keep them aligned to cope with disintegrated valve guides. And these were all privately taught students of one of the band members, and had done their best to take care of their school owned instruments, which were obviously fairly new. And it's not just that the brass is soft, or that there is too much OCD by Yamaha management about valve clearances from the factory, but the valve casings are too thin. Thicker valve casings with a little more zinc in the mix and reengineered valve guides would go a long way to make these tubas more durable.
The Yamaha valve guides now have a metal inserts in the valve guides. I prefer the plastic ones that are smoother for me and are dirt cheap and changeable in about 30 seconds.
I respectfully disagree with the comment above about "...all school horns..." etc. My school had King tubas and Sousaphones. They were ancient. We were taught how to take care of them, and they lasted forever and had effectively no problems with regard to the horn itself. Yes, occasionally, someone would trip or an accident would happen, as might happen to anyone, student, community band, professional, etc., but when I was in school we never had any of the consistent problems Yamaha instruments have, especially regarding the valves.
Now, from here on out, the rest of the TNFJ is going to try to convince me otherwise. Each in turn is going to post their anecdotes and generalities, opinions and persuasive arguments to either attempt to change my mind, or show where I am "wrong." I have posted my specific experiences, and the opinions I have derived therefrom. And I maintain them.
And, I'll say it again, as I posted above: if anybody wants to come to where I am and demonstrate that Yamaha instruments are better, please do. I appreciate all of your experiences and opinions, and I am glad there are those who have good experiences with Yamaha instruments. I expect to be shown the same courtesy in return.
iiipopes wrote:I appreciate that there are those of you who have Yamaha instruments that have served well for you. In addition to my observations, my tech tells me that, at least with regard to school instruments, that the vast majority of his work is re-rounding Yamaha piston casings and fixing broken valve guides, taking more time than repairs on all other brands of instruments put together.
The valve guides of Yammys are a regular wear item, and not really a "concern"... They are designed for near instant replacement.
Casings out of round happen on ALL makes subjected to ^%#$ing kids. The nice part of Yammys is that every single one of them has the exact same inner diameter, and a mandrel does wonders for these... compared to the variability of every other make I've encountered. And they are nowhere near as soft as Meinl Weston pistons!
The rotors, with their steel bearing inserts... I've never heard of one dying by any other method than some *&^&ing kid breaking the bearing stem off. Even then, it's an affordable repair.
My own Yammys are of a variety of ages. My 321 Euph is very early, and the valves have no blowby at all, work perfectly, and the previous owner used them a LOT. My baritone was practically stomped on, but came back swinging and tight. My 621 F is happy, as is my 641.
There're a grillion student Yammys that come through my shop every summer and year. Easily, the Yammys outlive everything else.
Instructor of Tuba & Euphonium, Cleveland State University
Principal Tuba, Firelands Symphony Orchestra
President, Variations in Brass http://www.jcsherman.net
The old metal guides on Yammys were great, and slightly adjustable. I still have them on my euph...
For everyone; the Yamaha tolerances are tight; they are definitely manufactured to "like" and use their factory oils. Period. Switch and you'll see.
Truly, the valve guides cost squat; buy extra sets. If the valves and guides are kept clean, they will last a long time, but are easily replaceable. If they are binding, you either are feeding it oil it hates, or it's not as clean as it should be.
Apples and oranges: Your old Kings live a long time, but we were taught to care for instrument and we were held accountable for damage. Not so anymore. Responsibility without accountability is a contradiction... and kinds can recognize a BS threat a mile away. Thus, they are free tubas with no need to be cared for.
J.c.S.
If a gnat sneezes on a Yamaha piston, it won't work... but it also won't leak either...
Instructor of Tuba & Euphonium, Cleveland State University
Principal Tuba, Firelands Symphony Orchestra
President, Variations in Brass http://www.jcsherman.net
iiipopes wrote:I respectfully disagree with the comment above about "...all school horns..." etc. My school had King tubas and Sousaphones. They were ancient. We were taught how to take care of them, and they lasted forever and had effectively no problems with regard to the horn itself.
We have discovered two things: 1.) one can't compare the experiences we had when we were in school, and were held responsible for the damage we did, with the reality of modern schools, where nobody is held accountable, and 2.) the technician from whom you got your anecdotal evaluation of Yamahas is not representative of general experience.
Again, everyone is doing exactly what I knew they would do: eat up bandwidth. For the third time: if Yamaha is better now, please feel free to bring one to where I am and show me. If not, please respect my opinion for the time being, as I am respecting all of the above opinions.
iiipopes wrote:Again, everyone is doing exactly what I knew they would do: eat up bandwidth. For the third time: if Yamaha is better now, please feel free to bring one to where I am and show me. If not, please respect my opinion for the time being, as I am respecting all of the above opinions.
Not going to happen. You can come to me, however. I play far too much to take a road trip to satisfy your curiosity or sway your opinion. You can stay here and I will take you out to eat, too. But you cannot move in. Our cats hate outsiders.
I never said I was curious. As a matter of fact, I am not curious. But I appreciate the invitation. Likewise, if you're ever through my part of the woods, call me in advance so I can clear my calendar for dinner on me.
Now, back to the OP's initial posting, which has been so derailed that....
In the UK some years ago there was an inexpensive line of instruments that were called "Lark," or something similar, I believe, that had an appropriately dismal reputation as to be mentioned in this thread, only to be remembered to the extent as to be reminded why they were so bad so as not to repeat the mistake.
I agree with Bloke on this one. I believe longevity is primarily user dependent. I was given a brand new MW 25 to play my senior year in High School. When I was done, there wasn't a scratch, dent or anything that would suggest it wasn't brand new. The next user was not as careful. I saw the horn the following spring after I had graduated and it looked like it had been run over by a bus. I asked what happened and I got "I guess I dropped it a few times, not my problem..." I was astounded at his lack of concern or caring.
bloke wrote:A whole bunch of Yamaha instruments are now manufactured in Communist China (Made in China" engraved by the serial number).
Some of the Jinbao knock-offs are SO similar, that I seriously wonder if they are - simply - "really hastily-made" Yamaha instruments.
I think the Eastman Andreas EBB-201/321 and the Yamaha YBB-201/321 are one in the same. They are identical to the eye. Don't know if the parts will interchange.
Dan Schultz
"The Village Tinker" http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
Just wanted to add in a clarification that I was not thinking specifically about when I asked the question:
Which tubas (make or model) have not stood the test of time in an ordinary wear and tear scenario for adults?
My parents were generous enough to be able to buy me my first cornet way back when so I never really had to rely on a school instrument, apart from a bass trombone that my high school bought for jazz band. We did have some school tubas that were fairly scary but I think could have been resurrected. One was a Conn 4 valve something. Perhaps Ben can remind me on the details... Knowing that my horn was in fact MINE meant that I babied that thing, and every other instrument I have owned since then.
I am actually fairly interested in knowing what the most durable makes and models for school instruments have been and will be, but I did want to clarify and remove overt violence, neglect, absent-mindedness, and avoidable accidents from the equation.
Also I did for a while own a Yamaha 621 CC with metal guides. I agree that choosing the wrong oil made for nervous play on that thing.
So, assuming responsible ownership and care, what tubas still failed the time test?
OK,
So which tubas do not stand the test of time, and why? The most reviled instruments were the ones that were not very good to start with. Instruments that were made to be "price-point" instruments, whether to supply school systems or amateur instrumentalists, were made as inexpensively as possible. The ones that were lightly-braced, or made of very thin or brittle metal did not fare as well. In the United States, the overwhelming majority of our tubas and euphoniums are, or have been school-owned instruments. In school situations, I'd venture to say that unbranded French and Czech instruments, B&S, Cerveny, Mirafone and Cousenon instruments, as well as some of the more recent Conn-Selmer and Holton student instruments did not stand up well to hard use. This is not to say that all of these instruments were bad instruments, or badly-made. The fact of the matter is that the Mirafone 186 was developed not to be a staple in US high school band rooms, but a standard professional tuba. The nickel-silver bell rim that is held together only by tension is a disaster-waiting-to-happen in a US school. The Cerveny/B&S/Amati tubas were likewise not designed for school use, but for careful adult players, introduced into our economy because of the pricepoint at which they could be sold when our currency was stronger. The St. Petersburg tuba was a Russian tuba of dismal quality that, through the efforts of an American seller, has been brought to the point of respectability. Designed not for American junior high schools but for Russian orchestras, these improved models offer a lot but have their weak points, too. Like the rest, in the hands of a conscientious adult and regularly maintained, one of these tubas could very well last a lifetime while giving good service.
On the other hand, in my experience, most of the low brass made by H.N. White/King, Conn(Elkhart), Yamaha and particularly F.E. Olds could take a lot of hard use and keep on playing. I have seen instances of these instruments having been grossly neglected and intentionally damaged, but this group is more sturdy and tends to better survive the abuse. Kanstul low brass has not been out long-enough to have a track record in the schools, except for corps-style instruments for marching, but I think that they will fare well, also.
I will have to address Mr. Pope's comments about Yamaha, too. Before I delved into the repair art full-time, I was pretty much against Yamaha, and was quick to criticize them whenever possible. However, over the past 12 years, I have repaired as many Yamaha instruments as anything, and have found them to be very consistent in their quality, and have actually had a very good time playing on a couple of them myself. I will say that the valves have really no tolerance for dirt, so they must be clean. But, when I do my full standard servicing on one and it leaves here with new OEM springs, felts, etc., even 30-year-old Yamahas play wonderfully. And, I have found their parts support to be outstanding, which is often the deciding factor in whether an instrument should be saved or junked. It remains to be seen how the outsourcing of parts production to China will affect the quality of Yamaha instruments, but so far all of my attempts to repair a Yamaha instrument have had a very good result.
Here's a valuable piece of repair trivia for you - if you have an old King tuba with a missing finger button pearl, they are no longer available from Conn-Selmer for years now. But, the pearl for a Yamaha YEP 321-II euphonium is readily available, and is a perfect fit.
Lee, thanks for your posting your experiences with Yamaha, and your perspective of the other brands you have serviced over the years. That's the kind of posts I appreciate highly.
bloke wrote:A whole bunch of Yamaha instruments are now manufactured in Communist China (Made in China" engraved by the serial number).
Some of the Jinbao knock-offs are SO similar, that I seriously wonder if they are - simply - "really hastily-made" Yamaha instruments.
I think the Eastman Andreas EBB-201/321 and the Yamaha YBB-201/321 are one in the same. They are identical to the eye. Don't know if the parts will interchange.
Yes, they're made with tooling purchased from Yamaha. You can take tuning slides from one and put them in the other as well as valves. I kinda like that the Eastman has a rose brass leadpipe though.
