Marching Band Innitiations

[Captain Sousie]

I have a strong suspicion that there is something funny going on considering the Bobo topic that happened earlier and this one. Someone might have gotten some info pirated or hijacked. I would say something to Sean but I have nothing other than suspicion to go on here. Hazing is however something real that goes on in a lot of sections regardless of instrument.

Not a laughing matter or a 'dumb' topic to anyone involved.

Captain "trying hard to remember that opinions are like..." Sousie

[TubaTodd82]

I think that the people that are posting all this legal crap, need to take the sticks out of their butts and lighten the the heck up. I never saw Chris say anything about forcing anyone to do anything. Granted this might not be the forum to post such a question, but your not being forced to read, post, or do anything. Give the kid a break. He only asked to see some other stories like his. LIGHTEN UP!!!!!

Todd

[TexTuba]

[Captain Sousie]

There are just too many things that can go wrong with "harmless fun"

AMEN! Regardless of legality and the lawsuit-happy society, hazing/initiations are only 'fun' to a select few. If you are like me, it is not 'fun' to go through anything like the hazing described earlier and it would have turned me away from tuba playing for a very long time, if not forever.

I think that the people that are posting all this legal crap, need to take the sticks out of their butts and lighten the the heck up...but your not being forced to read, post, or do anything.

Hmmm...irony?

Sou

[Joe Baker]

I was just thinking; this is the cycle of ritual abuse, just like when molested children grow up to be molesters themselves. Could it be, those of you who think the rest of us are humor challenged, that -- having suffered this abuse yourselves -- you are just ready to be the one doing the abusing? To attempt to regain your own dignity by demeaning others? All I can say is, "let it go."

As for having a stick in my nether-regions... this is a DISCUSSION group. If someone wrote in "Hey, any of you guys have any great stories about stompin' [insert despised minority here]?", I suppose you'd say we had a stick up our butts for speaking up against that? You don't bring up a subject for discussion if you don't want it discussed.
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Joe Baker, who wishes that, in addition to name and avatar, we could see the poster's age.

[MaryAnn]

I'm not surprised that you are surprised at the reaction.

What you don't understand is that some kids will participate "out of their own free will" because they figure they will be labled as chicken, or will not be accepted, if they do NOT participate. It IS hazing whether you want to think so or not, so I think you better re-think yet again.

I'm sure your school lawyer will agree with me. If you don't think so, ask him or her. Ask the school counselor; ask the principal.

MA, who absoutely will not get off your back when it needs sitting on

[TexTuba]

Too bad they don't have the delete option anymore...




Ralph

[Joe Baker]

Uh, I think you have "hazing" confused with "assault" or "torture", or maybe "aggravated kidnapping". What you described, turning people into 'human sundaes' (or however you spelled it), is definitely hazing. Causing bodily harm, or forcing people to participate, would fit one of those other descriptions. Don't believe me? Let's ask the American Heritage Dictionary:

haze
tr.v. hazed, haz·ing, haz·es

1. To persecute or harass with meaningless, difficult, or humiliating tasks.
2. To initiate, as into a college fraternity, by exacting humiliating performances from or playing rough practical jokes upon.

I see nothing about inflicting bodily harm in that definition. I assure you, you are a victim and also a perpetrator of hazing.

As for the degree to which it is voluntary: for not participating, you have written off the former section leader as lazy, not caring about tuba and -- I just LOVED this criticism -- caring about her friends .

Bitch.

Seriously, at 6'6" and 280 pounds, it takes a lot to scare you. I know, I'm 6 foot and 260 pounds, and it takes a lot to scare me. But how about the frail, shy incoming freshman, who doesn't know how far it might go? You'll never know what really good musician you've scared away from your band because they heard they'd have 6'6", 280 pound TubaChris turning them into a human sundae and laughing at them. So why not be a 6'6", 280 pound MAN, instead of a 6'6", 280 pound BOY. Be a leader. Refuse to participate. Stand up AGAINST this stuff. Remember, slavery used to be a tradition too. They said it was for the slaves' own good -- having a master to take care of 'em & all. It took people with a heart, a brain, and a backbone to change that.

What you're doing is wrong. No amount of rationalizing (look THAT up in your Funk & Wagnalls) will change that fact.
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Joe Baker, who has seen too much bullying in his life, and will stand no more.

[Charlie Goodman]

Hey! But i think the 1291 is awesome! And.... encounters II is hard! and...pick the mouthpiece that best allows you to make the sound you imagine in your head! Arnold Jacobs was really neat!

Sorry, but I'm used to the Tubenet being time-wasting and tuba-related, not time-wasting and hateful.

[Biggs]

I am but a mere bugler, but I feel that this topic is long overdue for an intervening lock on the part of the moderator. Seriously, can't we all just get along?

[Joe Baker]

Chris, I was in the process of writing my statement that you perpetuate hazing when you posted your statement that you never initiated anyone. So yeah, when I said 'perpetuated' I meant 'participated', and since I've now seen you deny doing so I'll drop that implication. But you most certainly ARE perpetuating it by condoning it. Besides, if you really think it's such a great thing to do, why would you be so adamant about denying it?

And no, I don't know all about you; nor do I mean to imply that you go around bullying everyone. But if you pressure -- even by accepting those who participate and rejecting those who don't -- incoming freshmen into allowing themselves to be subjected to the stuff you described, I will stand by my statement: when you subject incoming freshmen to the stuff you've described, or condone others doing so, you are a bully. If it bothers you to be thought a bully, then quit bullying.

FWIW, I've read your posts, and my opinion of you has been that you're a pretty decent kid (I can call you a kid because I have kids older than you -- not meant to be disrespectful), but you've convinced yourself that this hazing is okay, and I'm trying to help you see it from the point of view of incoming freshmen who are NOT big, strong, and loaded with robust self-confidence. A strong, confident kid like you has the ability to change this sort of thing, and I'd just like to help you see that that would be a good thing.
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Joe Baker, who wishes you nothing but good things.

[Joe Baker]

I am but a mere bugler, but I feel that this topic is long overdue for an intervening lock on the part of the moderator. Seriously, can't we all just get along?

Huh??? When you consider the number of people on this board who are members or directors of high school bands, I think this topic is EXTREMELY important. I don't think anyone is trying to be hateful; we're trying to help a bunch of mostly pretty good kids see that 'the way things have been done' can sometimes be wrong, and that it's best not to perpetuate those things.
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Joe Baker, who thinks if people worried mostly about getting along, we'd all be British subjects, and slavery would still be with us.

[jaredsan]

Tubachris certainly opened up a pandoras box with this one.

People at my high school were going to force freshman to drink the spit from their valves. Luckily, it never happened. What turned out to be a great section morale booster was one day, the tuba section put giant sharpie decals on our biceps, and then rolled up our T-shirt sleeves for practice. That's a simple, easy, painless "initiation" that everyone canm participate in. They had our number/letter in the marching drill, our graduating year, and our name inside of a diamond.

Initiations should be participated by the whole group. Initiation party poopers should feel like they aren't pooping. That's my view.

[Joe Baker]

What turned out to be a great section morale booster was one day, the tuba section put giant sharpie decals on our biceps, and then rolled up our T-shirt sleeves for practice. That's a simple, easy, painless "initiation" that everyone canm participate in. They had our number/letter in the marching drill, our graduating year, and our name inside of a diamond.

Now, THIS is the right idea. Something the WHOLE section does TOGETHER, so the newcomers feel included as peers. Rather than being demeaning, it's uplifting. That's the kind of initiation I think will accomplish something really positive.

There might even be some middle ground in all this. For example, if your section has a song or chant about how great you are, maybe the newcomers do it together for the group as an initiation. They'd be singing or chanting something positive, not embarrassing, something they've already heard the upper classmen do a bunch of times. But no solos; if necessary, get the sophomores to sing with a single incoming freshman. I think it'd be better if you could recognize completion of band camp by allowing the newcomers to sing ALONG WITH the returning members for the first time.

And I hope I haven't given the idea that I think hazing is the worst thing a person can ever do; I just think that it is 'bad'. Hundreds of things a HS student can do are worse. I think it is not only unkind, but also counterproductive. Chris, you've said you know the freshmen, and they didn't mind it. But you DON'T know who the freshmen are who might have decided not to show up for band, because by definition they wouldn't have shown up! Maybe you didn't lose any; but do you know?

I understand about traditions. I LOVE traditions. But all sorts of terrible things have been traditions at times. In some families, child abuse is a tradition. In our culture, racism has been a tradition. It's important to look critically at traditions and re-evaluate them from time to time. That's what I'm suggesting here.

As for my experiences in High School, I was part of two groups in HS, neither of which ever had any hazing or "initiation". Our band (for reasons I won't go into -- just not an interesting story) had no traditions, and we've all lost contact with each other. Another group I was a part of, the German club (a big deal in lots of TX high schools), still gets together on a regular basis -- in fact, I got an email this morning from one of my buddies in that group, suggesting we get together for a beer and some German food. Why were we still so close 26 years later? Because when someone came into the group they were welcomed. They were given two mentors (a "mom" and a "dad"), they learned the (dirty) German club song, which they then sang (if they wanted to) with the whole German club, not by themselves. Matching t-shirts, of course. We had regular get-togethers, some centered around things German, some just for fun. Someone mentioned scavenger hunts; we did those. In each case, a car had a "mom" and "dad" and their "kids".

As near as I can tell, those who have extolled the virtues of hazing are all HS students, or at most a couple of years out of HS. Those of us who have been around for 40 years or more have seen what has and hasn't worked to promote unity, both in our own experience and in that of our spouses and kids. I'm telling you, you would do your organizations a huge service by getting rid of the hazing rituals.

I'm going to make one last point, then I'll let others have the last word on this (I gotta do some other stuff today ). In many school systems, the budgeteers are just looking for an excuse to cut the band programs. A lawsuit because of hazing -- and we all know that some pretty trivial stuff can lead to successful lawsuits -- could be all it takes for your school district to cap the band program. THAT'll end a tradition in a hurry.

My best to you all. I hope you'll be courageous enough to think for yourselves rather than doing the wrong thing with the lame excuse that "it's tradition".
__________________________
Joe Baker, who has never hazed or been hazed, but whose life experience has taught him that hazing is wrong.

[Joe Baker]

Okay, but I DO get to drink the beer, right?
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Joe Baker, who notes that those 4 guys better be some real hosses, or I'm going to be a gooey place on the sidewalk!

[ThomasDodd]

It was more a rite of passage of sorts than anything.

Jordie beat me too it.

I must say, it's sad that almost any right of passage is considered hazing today, and that lawsuits are the prefered method of preventing them.

I recently read about how we've lost our sense of humor, to the point of a lawer being sued by another for making a joke* waiting in line to enter a courthouse.

What's wrong with these people? Initiatios are something memeber who took them shre, and bonds them in the group.

Given the reactions, you guys would love some of the stuff I did in the Marine Corps then.

-Thomas "thinking society could use some rites of passage these days"

* along the lines of 50 lawers in cement overshoes being a good start.

[Matt G]

I think the TubeNet initiation should be the old cinder block trick for the boys and whatever would corrspond for the girls...

Seriously, I think the biggest argument against hazing is our legal system. Even if it may be perceived as harmless by 99.9% of the people out there, that 0.1% will ruin the fun for every one else.

Case in point:

When I started college in 1993 and started marching band a week before school started, we all went through an initiation. Relatively harmless stuff, most everyone took it well in stride. One time people were blindfolded for about ten minutes and the other was when everyone got doused with water. Some yelling at Freshmen during drills was part of the nonsense as well.

The next year, Fall 1994, we did the same thing. However, one of the big boys, either FSU or UF, got in a poop-load of trouble for their initiation. From there on out, initiation was morphed into basically a social with a pool party.

To avoid any potential penalty, our school changed everything post haste. When reflected upon, the hazing was basically useless and provided no positive benefits that couldn't be acheived through other methods.

I was negative towards the movement at first and at that age (19), but now realize that it was in the band's best interest. It would be terrible to have the band suspended due to a person getting hurt either physically or emotionally.


While no one might have been hurt by yours bands actions, that does not speak for potential risk in the future. You might not think that it bothers anybody, but you are not in everybody's head. You may not know that someone might have had a negative experience as a child that involved something similar to a "rite of initiation" that involved some heavy emotional scarring. Not everyone has the same past and some people's journey through life have been extremely difficult and emotionally taxing. At the age of 15/16 empathy is not a skill that I would expect to have in your skill set. However, understanding that a lot of the "elder" folk in here have real world experience with things like managing people and dealing with the law is something you should try to grasp. Additionally, many of these people have children your age and would not appreciate these types of things happening to/around there kids.

No one is personally attacking you, just your position. That is because your position has been found to be wrong again and again. Precedence is everything in the law. What is even more suprising is the amount of hazing issues that have been brought to the courts in the State of Florida in both High School and College situations and that your band director is either ignorant or stupid and allows you to continue in these things. Furthermore, the students should know that this carries potential risk. If you don't like having your band director around or even possibly a band program alltogether, continue on the same path. If you do, cease and desist.

I've been through a numerous amount of stuff involving hazing or been close to it. Be it Fraternal, Extra-Curricular, Athletic, and even Academic, it is all risky. If we are talking Military, I have no real objection to that, because war is exponentially and factorally worse than pretty much any military initiations can bring, but there have been cases on that to and the military has been found in the wrong. Granted that these are some very tortuous and extreme actions at times, people opt into the military knowing that they might have to carry a weapon and kill other human beings. People opt into band for much different (hopefully) reasons.

[ThomasDodd]

When are we going to hold those TubeNet initiations?

I think Chris has just passed his trial-by-fire initiation.

[Uncle Buck]

There is obviously a (blurry) line somewhere between appropriate section activities, and hazing.

However, spraying ice cream sundae toppings on freshman is NOT in the grey area. It is hazing, plain and simple. It is exactly the kind of thing in which freshman may not want to, but feel pressured to, participate.

TubaChris, I applaud you since you say you did not participate in that activity. I encourage you to take the next step and try your best to make sure it doesn't happen in the future.

[Shockwave]

I've never understood why some people take such pleasure in seeing others humiliated. Judging by the popularity of such humiliation-based TV shows like "Fear Factor" and "American Idol" it seems as though more than just a few people enjoy it.

-Eric