York Style Tubas

[tobysima`]

This one:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=96782&hilit=bmb#p707621" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

I was told by my teacher to get 5 valves, but it's a very nice horn

Did your teacher "require" it be a CC? Are you trying to be an orchestral tubist in the U.S.? You can get a lot more tuba for your buck if you look for a solid BBb. A used Eastman 562 or Miraphone 186 would be all you would need, but in keeping with the York/American idea, a new-style King 2341 would fit the bill nicely. There are a couple of members here who can tell you about how well that works in orchestra.

But you asked about Yorkish CC tubas...

The Eastman 632 CC is a really nice tuba, and it comes at a really nice price. I've seen used 632's go for $4500-5500, and maybe one or two around $4000. Still not in your budget, but much closer than many other CC tubas. The 832 is more expensive, and there aren't a bunch of them floating around used. I wouldn't worry about it. The 6/4 862 CC is almost 4X your budget and probably is not the best choice for a student needing a do-it-all/play-everything tuba.

Yorkish F tubas? We occasionally see some frankentubas around here, but the closest thing to the York sound concept in an F tuba is likely the Kanstul 80 F tuba. Occasionally for sale here, and closer to your stated budget than anything else.

Unfortunately, tuba players have to pay to play. Buying a top shelf tuba is like buying a new Toyota - it ain't cheap. And just like cars, the tuba world has its Rolls Royce's (Swiss marketing even says so) down to the Yugo, and all other kinds in between. Shop carefully. At least tubas are pretty easy to tell if it has problems or needs work.

We laugh at trumpet players complaining about what their instruments cost, but string players really laugh at us - some of their bows cost as much as a Toyota, and their instruments can cost as much as a house in a small rural town OR MORE. If you could be patient and save a total of $5000, a few more doors will be open to you. If you were looking at BBb tubas, even more possibilities would exist. If your teacher is more worried about the key of the tuba than how well you sound on whatever you can afford, or has some misguided prejudice against BBb, IMHO that's a problem (we've discussed that here many times). But that's for another thread...

Either way, good luck, God bless, and let us know how it goes. We all know the journey and struggle, and many of us like to hear about each others' journey and struggles also.

My teacher does require it to be a CC, but he's the best teacher I've ever had, so I don't have an issue with it. I'll have to learn CC eventually!

[anotherjtm2]

never mind

[Wyvern]

Wessex are developing a 4/4 York Style CC tuba which we expect to release during 2021. I can’t say any more at present, but it is an exciting project for me.

[tobysima`]

My teacher does require it to be a CC, but he's the best teacher I've ever had, so I don't have an issue with it. I'll have to learn CC eventually!

Your business with your teacher is your business. My intention is not to make your teacher out to be a flake, but I'm sure he would agree that playing the instrument well and the musicianship are paramount, regardless of the key of instrument. A po boy does what a po boy can with whatever a po boy has. But if it's best for your situation to have a CC (no one can force you unless they pay for it, of course), keep saving. Not sure if the York idea is yours or his, but you can sometimes find a Musica CC (rotary) here in your budget range. Maybe not ideal, but it's CC and it's a start. And the cool/convenient/truthful thing about it, despite what any teacher/player/Tubenet Freak Jurist says, you can start with something and always upgrade. They sell tubas every day, and somebody somewhere will be glad to take your money. And that ain't going away, friend. Please keep us informed!

I don't intend to buy a York-style horn right away. I do quite like how they sound, though. I can't really describe it well, but it seems "fluffier" to me but it can have some edge to it like the trombones, and I like edge.

[tobysima`]

Wessex are developing a 4/4 York Style CC tuba which we expect to release during 2021. I can’t say any more at present, but it is an exciting project for me.

I cannot wait to see what it looks like! Will you be copying Will's Vienna F as well?

[tobysima`]

Here’s another:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=96881

It looks nice! Sadly my mom would shoot me if I spent that sort of money! Can't wait until I have a wife!

[bort]

Here’s another:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=96881

It looks nice! Sadly my mom would shoot me if I spent that sort of money! Can't wait until I have a wife!

I honestly have no idea what you mean by that, or what you expect to be different.

[tobysima`]

Here’s another:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=96881

It looks nice! Sadly my mom would shoot me if I spent that sort of money! Can't wait until I have a wife!

I honestly have no idea what you mean by that, or what you expect to be different.

Just sarcasm, sorry if I didn't convey that well

[Wyvern]

I cannot wait to see what it looks like! Will you be copying Will's Vienna F as well?

A Vienna F is a long term aim. I am mostly concentrating Wessex development on mainstream tubas at present.

[Matt G]

OP, keep saving up. Your target for a 4/4 CC of the “York style” is a budget of $8,000. That puts you in position to but just about whatever is on the market. Reason I say “whatever” is simply because you want to have options. No one wants to play a tuba that is more work than it’s worth (been there before).

For even cheaper non-York CC tubas, e.g. Germanic rotary tubas, you’ll want to have about $5,000 on hand. I know the Chinese tubas are significantly less than this, but again, options.

Don’t go by anomalies when shopping either. Stuff like “so-and-so got a [expensive tuba] for [ridiculously low price]” and expect that to happen to you. Expect to pay the market average and then negotiate as best you can.

If your lesson instructor is requiring a CC tuba, you need to be up front with your budget restrictions. I never asked a student to buy a CC mainly because if/when they went off to college I’d let them sort that out then. I had examples of students buying an old Conn 20J for dirt, used Marzan, new King, etc. I would point them in a direction and let them find what they could for what their parents were willing and able to spend. As good as those kids were (top chairs in state and county bands, positions in local youth orchestras), none majored in music.

[anotherjtm2]

We have at least one college teacher in our state who is very clear that his students must play CC, and while being a great teacher and player, that doesn't take the student's circumstances into account, student's potential be damned. And I've heard all the reasons for this requirement, so stop typing. Can he make that part of his requirement? I guess so, but if you're a potential student that can't pony up the dough, you'll need to study elsewhere. Or with a grad assistant. But the other side of that is if you want to study with him, having the "right gear" is the price you have to pay. You can view that however you want. And simply playing the tuba at all is not a cheap endeavor, a fact that parents and students need to realize, and teachers don't need to forget. ...

If a college teacher insists on students playing CC for some educational reason, and they're students at his college in his program, rather than just private lesson students outside the college, then the college should provide instruments for students who can't. This is especially true if part of the "education" includes spending time on tubas in four keys, plus euphonium; don't make a student find and buy four extra instruments that they won't need long term.

I finished college without owning any of what I normally played (tuba, bassoon) because the university had instruments I could borrow, even as a non music major.

[Rick Denney]

It is absolutely true that a crappy C tuba is a worse choice than a good Bb tuba, and the budget is in the crappy C tuba range, unless the OP is very lucky.

We have several ideas here. One is that the tuba must be a C. There is an advantage to playing a C in college, though it's more a political advantage than a musical advantage, and only for performance majors. For music-ed students whose outside playing will be the occasional pro gig, demonstrating for students, and community groups, there is no advantage to a C tuba, unless the C tuba in question is, irrespective of its bugle length, the right tuba. That's a personal choice that one can make when one has saved the money to make it work. Herb Wekselblatt had a great career with the Metropolitcan Opera orchestra using a Bb tuba. Most top German orchestra pros--some of the very best orchestras on planet Earth, by the way--play Bb tubas when they play a contrabass tuba. Military pros routinely play Bb and C tubas, and have to be completely proficient on both.

The second is that it must have a fifth valve. A C tuba needs a fifth valve to play the commonly seen low F conveniently. That said, pros have had illustrious careers managing that low F in other ways. Mike Sanders played his four-valve Alex 163 for 20 years in the San Antonio Symphony, for example, and that's not at all the only example. This is, to me, the easiest compromise to make with a limited budget. Ray Grim found a superb Rudi Meinl 5/4--a great orchestral rotary tuba--that fit his budget specifically because it lacked a fifth valve. Yes, he had to learn how to manage the intonation of a few notes (most of which were unrelated to the extra valve). Still, it was the tool he needed to sub in the symphony (and also to provide the bottom in a pro-level wind ensemble) versus his beloved five-valve 186 CC, and for that it was the right tuba.

The third is that it must be in the style currently popular. Yes, the York sound is deep and round but with some upper-harmonic zip in it. Yes, there are a zillion copies of it. Yes, for many years everyone has wanted one (though I think that may be moderating a bit). But just as with the copies of the 6/4 CSO York, the copies are so different from each other that I think we've lost track of what we are copying (this is why I showed some pics of authentic pre-war York 4/4 C tubas). They have a presence in the sound, with the right player, but not necessarily a high degree of projection and clarity unless the player brings it. Clarity requires work. Even my little Eastman 534 lacks the clarity I get from my very large Hirsbrunner kaiser. It's quite sensitive to mouthpiece choices, while the 193 is not. But it's the right tuba when I need a contrabass in quintet, while the Hirsbrunner is the right tuba when I'm playing in the Symphonic Winds.

Since the teacher is easblishing parameters, I would ask his assistance in locating an instrument that 1.) meets his requirements, 2.) that resonates with you well enough to make you want to play it more, and 3.) you can afford. Ask him what he should compromise first in order to own a tuba, because no tuba is the only unacceptable compromise.

My own advice to the OP doesn' t matter, but consider this: A used, good Bb tuba (and you can get a decent Miraphone 186 Bb in your budget, among many other choices--including a used Eastman 534 or B&M Symphonic 5500 or King 2341 or whatever to scratch your Yorkish itch) will be worth what you paid for it two years from now, if you take excellent care of it. Owning it can be part of your savings program. When you have advanced to the point where you have more confidence in what you need, and less need to pacify a teacher, then sell it for what you paid for it, at that to your new savings, and move on up. But it's just possible you'll end up keeping it. The key is to buy it pre-depreciated, from a respected brand, in decent condition, and an appropriate price, and then take superb care of it. Respectfully present this plan to your teacher, and ask him to help you make a choice of an instrument that for that couple of years won't hold you back.

Rick "buying a tuba is not a sacred vow" Denney

[tobysima`]

It is absolutely true that a crappy C tuba is a worse choice than a good Bb tuba, and the budget is in the crappy C tuba range, unless the OP is very lucky.

We have several ideas here. One is that the tuba must be a C. There is an advantage to playing a C in college, though it's more a political advantage than a musical advantage, and only for performance majors. For music-ed students whose outside playing will be the occasional pro gig, demonstrating for students, and community groups, there is no advantage to a C tuba, unless the C tuba in question is, irrespective of its bugle length, the right tuba. That's a personal choice that one can make when one has saved the money to make it work. Herb Wekselblatt had a great career with the Metropolitcan Opera orchestra using a Bb tuba. Most top German orchestra pros--some of the very best orchestras on planet Earth, by the way--play Bb tubas when they play a contrabass tuba. Military pros routinely play Bb and C tubas, and have to be completely proficient on both.

The second is that it must have a fifth valve. A C tuba needs a fifth valve to play the commonly seen low F conveniently. That said, pros have had illustrious careers managing that low F in other ways. Mike Sanders played his four-valve Alex 163 for 20 years in the San Antonio Symphony, for example, and that's not at all the only example. This is, to me, the easiest compromise to make with a limited budget. Ray Grim found a superb Rudi Meinl 5/4--a great orchestral rotary tuba--that fit his budget specifically because it lacked a fifth valve. Yes, he had to learn how to manage the intonation of a few notes (most of which were unrelated to the extra valve). Still, it was the tool he needed to sub in the symphony (and also to provide the bottom in a pro-level wind ensemble) versus his beloved five-valve 186 CC, and for that it was the right tuba.

The third is that it must be in the style currently popular. Yes, the York sound is deep and round but with some upper-harmonic zip in it. Yes, there are a zillion copies of it. Yes, for many years everyone has wanted one (though I think that may be moderating a bit). But just as with the copies of the 6/4 CSO York, the copies are so different from each other that I think we've lost track of what we are copying (this is why I showed some pics of authentic pre-war York 4/4 C tubas). They have a presence in the sound, with the right player, but not necessarily a high degree of projection and clarity unless the player brings it. Clarity requires work. Even my little Eastman 534 lacks the clarity I get from my very large Hirsbrunner kaiser. It's quite sensitive to mouthpiece choices, while the 193 is not. But it's the right tuba when I need a contrabass in quintet, while the Hirsbrunner is the right tuba when I'm playing in the Symphonic Winds.

Since the teacher is easblishing parameters, I would ask his assistance in locating an instrument that 1.) meets his requirements, 2.) that resonates with you well enough to make you want to play it more, and 3.) you can afford. Ask him what he should compromise first in order to own a tuba, because no tuba is the only unacceptable compromise.

My own advice to the OP doesn' t matter, but consider this: A used, good Bb tuba (and you can get a decent Miraphone 186 Bb in your budget, among many other choices--including a used Eastman 534 or B&M Symphonic 5500 or King 2341 or whatever to scratch your Yorkish itch) will be worth what you paid for it two years from now, if you take excellent care of it. Owning it can be part of your savings program. When you have advanced to the point where you have more confidence in what you need, and less need to pacify a teacher, then sell it for what you paid for it, at that to your new savings, and move on up. But it's just possible you'll end up keeping it. The key is to buy it pre-depreciated, from a respected brand, in decent condition, and an appropriate price, and then take superb care of it. Respectfully present this plan to your teacher, and ask him to help you make a choice of an instrument that for that couple of years won't hold you back.

Rick "buying a tuba is not a sacred vow" Denney

I figured that I could eventually sell the tuba to upgrade. I'm not necessarily going to buy a York/American/whatever you want to call it style tuba now, it's just something that really interests me. I'm fine with being required to play C, because I'd want to learn it anyways, and the little push will help me be motivated to learn it. I can always continue playing Bb.

[tobysima`]

If your lesson instructor is requiring a CC tuba, you need to be up front with your budget restrictions. I never asked a student to buy a CC mainly because if/when they went off to college I’d let them sort that out then. I had examples of students buying an old Conn 20J for dirt, used Marzan, new King, etc. I would point them in a direction and let them find what they could for what their parents were willing and able to spend. As good as those kids were (top chairs in state and county bands, positions in local youth orchestras), none majored in music.

**Sidebar**

Matt, I don't know this young player's situation, so I won't comment specifically to him. But I'll kick the beehive anyway with my general opinion regarding key of tuba, etc. ^^^This^^^ (what Matt said) is how it should be with teachers IMHO. And even college teachers shouldn't have a CC "requirement." And they can't force you to buy something you can't afford or don't want, although they might refuse to teach you because of their brainwashed CC/F elitism (and is most assuredly brainwashed elitism). The key of the tuba is NOT THE POINT. Can it be part of the education at some point? Sure, but the key of the instrument does NOT determine if someone is serious, if someone is a professional, or if someone is a good player. A CC is not required to be a serious college tuba player. A CC is not required for one to become a great player. Our colleagues in other parts of the world might take exception to the "CC = serious player." If CC and F is a hard and fast prerequisite for study with any teacher, then that teacher needs his head, motives, and scruples examined. And the student needs to move on. The emphasis should be on the student, not the key of his instrument.

We have at least one college teacher in our state who is very clear that his students must play CC, and while being a great teacher and player, that doesn't take the student's circumstances into account, student's potential be damned. And I've heard all the reasons for this requirement, so stop typing. Can he make that part of his requirement? I guess so, but if you're a potential student that can't pony up the dough, you'll need to study elsewhere. Or with a grad assistant. But the other side of that is if you want to study with him, having the "right gear" is the price you have to pay. You can view that however you want. And simply playing the tuba at all is not a cheap endeavor, a fact that parents and students need to realize, and teachers don't need to forget.

I was chided (and not mildly) by a teacher for not buying what I thought was the absolute best playing, most responsive, best intonation, best sound, most resonant tuba at Custom Music - an Alexander 164 BBb. It was head and shoulders above everything they had in the tuba house, including Kurath CC, HB 2, HB 2P, HB 6, B&S, etc., and it was half the price. I haven't played a tuba like it since. BUT I was caught up in the early beginnings of the BAT CC arms race all on my own, and I just had to have a big CC. I got home with my purchase, told the story about the Alex, and my teacher rightly called me out on it. And he WAS right. It's not about the key of the tuba. It's about the musician behind it. The stupid, shameful part is that the Alex was the best tuba there. Any CC there was NOT an upgrade, but I still didn't get it. I was doubly stupid. Oh yeah... the Alex cost half as much as the others... I was triple dumb@$$.

I wonder what those CC/F-only teachers have to say when the the best CC tubas made AREN'T an upgrade from a BBb...

He knows about my budget restrictions, and I was encouraged to shop used. I don't have a problem with it because he said I could find something within my budget that can fit me as long as I try horns.

[tobysima`]

Here’s another:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=96881

It looks nice! Sadly my mom would shoot me if I spent that sort of money! Can't wait until I have a wife!

If $3500 is worth being shot over by mom, then mom needs an education about tubas and musical instruments - $3500 is NOTHING compared to what other tubas and many other instruments cost. With a budget of $3000, you would do well to try and negotiate or work extra to make up the difference. And that Musica tuba, while not a Nirschl 6/4 CC, would be a fine tuba to start with that is well within your budget.

And, sarcasm notwithstanding, it's rare a wife will be very supportive, especially financially (greedy, selfish, entitled bunch many of them are), so you better choose very carefully. The right one will be out there, but they aren't everywhere. Good tubas, however, are plentiful, much more affordable, and you can usually sell/upgrade and get what you paid for it. Even so, choose them carefully as well.

I tried to convince her, but it fell on deaf ears.

[tobysima`]

He knows about my budget restrictions, and I was encouraged to shop used. I don't have a problem with it because he said I could find something within my budget that can fit me as long as I try horns.

I'm not sure why he thinks there is much choice of CC tubas worth playing (or even to be found) in your price range. Is this a college tuba instructor, local pro, or something else? Why is he not helping locate this needle-in-a-haystack tuba?

I tried to convince her, but it fell on deaf ears.

I'm sorry, pal. Sounds like you're in a pinch. If it is a limited budget issue with mom, I can understand to a point - sometimes money is hard to save (but you can still try to negotiate for $3000!). If it is because your teacher told your mom that you could easily find HIS requirements in HER price range, he has misled her horribly. That would be irresponsible and disingenuous.

Whatever the case, I will again encourage you to think about the Musica. If you haven't already, call places like Dillon Music, Baltimore Brass, Horn Guys, etc. and see what they have. You typically pay more from a retail shop, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

He helped me by sending me resources such as Baltimore Brass, the tubenet for sale forum, a Facebook marketplace, stuff like that. He encouraged i buy used. He is a college instructor, but I wont say what school as to not put his name out there (I don't want to have any rampant hate or criticism towards him).

[tobysima`]

He knows about my budget restrictions, and I was encouraged to shop used. I don't have a problem with it because he said I could find something within my budget that can fit me as long as I try horns.

I'm not sure why he thinks there is much choice of CC tubas worth playing (or even to be found) in your price range. Is this a college tuba instructor, local pro, or something else? Why is he not helping locate this needle-in-a-haystack tuba?

I tried to convince her, but it fell on deaf ears.

I'm sorry, pal. Sounds like you're in a pinch. If it is a limited budget issue with mom, I can understand to a point - sometimes money is hard to save (but you can still try to negotiate for $3000!). If it is because your teacher told your mom that you could easily find HIS requirements in HER price range, he has misled her horribly. That would be irresponsible and disingenuous.

Whatever the case, I will again encourage you to think about the Musica. If you haven't already, call places like Dillon Music, Baltimore Brass, Horn Guys, etc. and see what they have. You typically pay more from a retail shop, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

He helped me by sending me resources such as Baltimore Brass, the tubenet for sale forum, a Facebook marketplace, stuff like that. He encouraged i buy used. He is a college instructor, but I wont say what school as to not put his name out there (I don't want to have any rampant hate or criticism towards him).[/quote]

We don’t need to know his name. We just want to make sure you’re being told correctly. Sometimes students don’t always get the best advice. And, of course, take everything you read here with a grain of salt as well. [/quote]

Thank you all for the help, then! I do want to play the tuba before buying it.

[tobysima`]

Thank you all for the help, then!

Most of us really want the best for each other, and we’re not bashful at expressing our concerns or opinions, shenanigans and tomfoolery notwithstanding.

I do want to play the tuba before buying it.

Trying before you buy is always best when possible. Better to be a smart fella than a fart smella. LOL

Haha. I did find an antique F tuba on Baltimore Brass for $500 and after work tomorrow I'm buying it. It's only a three-valver but I wanna honk an F tuba (and own one).