Bug in the ear of the Chinese cloners...

[prototypedenNIS]

To borrow KJV's analogy: the Timex buyers are looking for the best quality Timex for their money--they would never seriously consider buying a Rolex--too damn high! Another thing: the folks who want and insist on having "the genuine article" would never seriously consider buying a clone. Two sets of consumers-two different markets.
JJ

They'd buy a fake Rolex from a street vendor for $10 though!

[TUBAD83]

To borrow KJV's analogy: the Timex buyers are looking for the best quality Timex for their money--they would never seriously consider buying a Rolex--too damn high! Another thing: the folks who want and insist on having "the genuine article" would never seriously consider buying a clone. Two sets of consumers-two different markets.
JJ

They'd buy a fake Rolex from a street vendor for $10 though!

Thats another class of consumer--called Dumb A$$e$--and they RICHLY deserve it WHEN (not IF) those fakes stop working, the fake stones fall out, and the tacky fake gold plate rubs off on their wrists. Have NO sympathy for them EVER.

JJ

[Wyvern]

Timex buyers are looking for the best quality Timex for their money--they would never seriously consider buying a Rolex--too damn high! Another thing: the folks who want and insist on having "the genuine article" would never seriously consider buying a clone. Two sets of consumers-two different markets.

I do not think the analogy is very sound as a Rolex costs about 100 times the amount of a Timex - and later is not a clone, those fake Rolex are!

Most people that buy a Rolex do so purely as a status symbol to show how wealthy the are - rather like driving a Porsche, or a Rolls Royce. People buy quality professional tubas because they are dedicated to their music making and want the best tool to do the job, be it as a professional, or dedicated hobbist. Most of the buyers of professional tubas will not be particularly wealthy and had to save hard to purchase. They rely on the sale of their old tuba to raise money towards the new tuba. If the re-sell value of their old tuba is depreciated, many will not be able to afford that professional tuba they aspire and sales will suffer.

Many buyers of clones will also want to up-grade to a quality tuba when they have the money - they are not a separate set of consumers.

I am just saying that if clone buyers bought a quality used tuba (such as geniune 186) like they did previously, they would keep the market moving. But we need to accept that it is human nature to always want new and people love a bargain.

Jonathan "who had to sell three old tubas to be able to afford his handmade goldbrass Neptune"

[Tubaryan12]

I do not think the analogy is very sound as a Rolex costs about 100 times the amount of a Timex - and later is not a clone, those fake Rolex are!

People buy quality professional tubas because they are dedicated to their music making and want the best tool to do the job, be it as a professional, or dedicated hobbist. Most of the buyers of professional tubas will not be particularly wealthy and had to save hard to purchase. They rely on the sale of their old tuba to raise money towards the new tuba. If the re-sell value of their old tuba is depreciated, many will not be able to afford that professional tuba they aspire and sales will suffer.

I think most people buy professional quality anything mainly because of it's perceived value, not necessarily because it will help them get the job done any better than they could with a lesser known brand. There are more amateur tuba players on this board than pros, and we know that with our busy lives, we are not putting in the work that most of the horns we own deserve. Most of us don't have the time to test clones to see how they stack up against the major brands....not to mention, people simply like saying they own "____________" brand horn. How many of us are playing on clone mouthpieces?

Tubaryan "yes, I'm guilty too......and I own a Timex and a fake Rolex" 12

[Tubaryan12]

Thats another class of consumer--called Dumb A$$e$--and they RICHLY deserve it WHEN (not IF) those fakes stop working, the fake stones fall out, and the tacky fake gold plate rubs off on their wrists. Have NO sympathy for them EVER.
JJ

You would be shocked by the quality of fakes these days. Full automatic movements, mother of pearl faces, stanless steel cases and bracelets, etc.

Tubayan "my Timex has been replaced because of failure, my fake Rolex has not" 12

[toobagrowl]

Lots of great posts here!

The folks who buy these clones are looking for the best tuba available in their price range. ---they are not looking to spend 4K (which is about the average price of a used name brand axe in good condition on ebay and craigslist) or more and they are certainly NOT looking to spend 6k or more for a new name brand tuba. To borrow KJV's analogy: the Timex buyers are looking for the best quality Timex for their money--they would never seriously consider buying a Rolex--too damn high! Another thing: the folks who want and insist on having "the genuine article" would never seriously consider buying a clone. Two sets of consumers-two different markets.

JJ

What you should REALLY be saying is: "I want a NEW tuba for a USED tuba price" The Chinese clones offer that. I myself have been tempted to buy a Chinese clone tuba. But then I realize where they are made and what they are doing to the real tuba manufacturers and it kinda makes me cringe I'd much rather buy a St. Pete, Cerveny or even a Weril (whos new prices are not much higher than the new Chinese tubas) any day before buying any Chinese-made tuba. How will these "clones" hold up and play in 30 or 50 years? You also have the option to spend roughly the same amount (3K or less) on used quality American or European horns - especially BBb and Eb tubas.

[Levaix]

Just a note... A lot of people are saying they would rather (from a moral standpoint) buy a used American or German horn rather than a new Chinese horn. How exactly does buying a used horn help tuba companies any more than buying a Chinese one? They're still getting zero money out of it.

I hope that's a fair question

[MartyNeilan]

As far as the moral dilemma:
My current tuba was made by the Germans around WWI. They never made any bad judgements during that time period, did they?

Noting that the craftsmen who built that instrument probably had ZERO political influence, the same as the modern day craftsmen in China.)

Marty "who can't afford a genuine Timex"

[TUBAD83]

Lots of great posts here!

What you should REALLY be saying is: "I want a NEW tuba for a USED tuba price" The Chinese clones offer that. I myself have been tempted to buy a Chinese clone tuba. But then I realize where they are made and what they are doing to the real tuba manufacturers and it kinda makes me cringe I'd much rather buy a St. Pete, Cerveny or even a Weril (whos new prices are not much higher than the new Chinese tubas) any day before buying any Chinese-made tuba. How will these "clones" hold up and play in 30 or 50 years? You also have the option to spend roughly the same amount (3K or less) on used quality American or European horns - especially BBb and Eb tubas.

Actually when I had decided to look for a tuba to buy, I had a budget of 2,000 dollars...period--not one cent more. My criteria: 4 rotary valves, built well enough that it did not fall apart when I handled it, played in tune, had a finish where it wouldn't rub off on my hands or come off over time. IF there was a used Yamaha, King, Conn, Hirsbrunner, Miraphone, or MW available that was in good condition and not a "fixer upper" and was within my budget, of course I would have purchased it. The Chinese clone I purchased met my criteria and my budget. I never worry about resale value since I did not invest that much in the first place. Same with my current Chinese clone--it plays great, looks great, and very happy with it...money very well spent.

The "3K or less...used quality American or European horns" sold on ebay and craigslist are few and far between to begin with; usually look like they have seen better decades, and usually will require some kind of repair work done after you buy it (which means you may blow your budget depending how much work that needs to be done).

Once again, in my view, consumers who want the name brand tubas and willing to pay to get them are not going to buy these clones--the clone market allows those, who otherwise could never afford a decent quality tuba, the opportunity to get one.

As for the moral question--I would submit the following: all those who have an issue with Chinese goods should remove all Chinese-made goods from their homes...starting with the device they are using to read this post. Good luck with that.

JJ

[Donn]

As for the moral question--I would submit the following: all those who have an issue with Chinese goods should remove all Chinese-made goods from their homes...starting with the device they are using to read this post. Good luck with that.

Goodness yes - people who want to raise any moral question should certainly be made aware of how futile that is!

[TexTuba]

For all of the folks who live in America:

Do you know how much we OWE the Chinese?! Buy their horns and maybe it'll help that debt!

[TexTuba]

How will these "clones" hold up and play in 30 or 50 years?

I dunno. How will you and your playing hold up in 30 or 50 years?

[prototypedenNIS]

Just a note... A lot of people are saying they would rather (from a moral standpoint) buy a used American or German horn rather than a new Chinese horn. How exactly does buying a used horn help tuba companies any more than buying a Chinese one? They're still getting zero money out of it.

I hope that's a fair question

It's a fair question.
The clone manufacture drives down the value of a quality horn. Instead of the seller getting 1/2 of what he paid, he gets 1/4. That's a substantial loss and it puts that person in a position where they have to spend less on whatever they needed the money for anyway. So instead of getting a good quality instrument with the money, he has to get something cheaper whether that's used or another ISO.
It could also be the difference of putting food on the table or Chinese made Ramen noodles.

So China and co. put higher priced products out of reach even when they're not actually making the direct sale while reaping the benefits of indirect sales.

People choosing used gear in greater numbers can help drive the demand based value higher so that quality used instruments can properly hold their value. People can't buy what they can't afford but if people can't get a good price, they won't sell until they're desperate. Getting a used horn can be ridiculously cheap, if you can find one.

You can sell 1 quality horn to get a new cheap one (if you're lucky).
You could sell a van load of cheap horns and not be able to afford a new quality one.

[ginnboonmiller]

Just a note... A lot of people are saying they would rather (from a moral standpoint) buy a used American or German horn rather than a new Chinese horn. How exactly does buying a used horn help tuba companies any more than buying a Chinese one? They're still getting zero money out of it.

I hope that's a fair question

It's a fair question.
The clone manufacture drives down the value of a quality horn. Instead of the seller getting 1/2 of what he paid, he gets 1/4. That's a substantial loss and it puts that person in a position where they have to spend less on whatever they needed the money for anyway. So instead of getting a good quality instrument with the money, he has to get something cheaper whether that's used or another ISO.
It could also be the difference of putting food on the table or Chinese made Ramen noodles.

So China and co. put higher priced products out of reach even when they're not actually making the direct sale while reaping the benefits of indirect sales.

People choosing used gear in greater numbers can help drive the demand based value higher so that quality used instruments can properly hold their value. People can't buy what they can't afford but if people can't get a good price, they won't sell until they're desperate. Getting a used horn can be ridiculously cheap, if you can find one.

You can sell 1 quality horn to get a new cheap one (if you're lucky).
You could sell a van load of cheap horns and not be able to afford a new quality one.

What you're suggesting is pretty much the opposite of what happened in the guitar world when clones started outperforming the American stuff. The big American luthiers jacked up the prices of their stuff, which got better crafted, and has steadily gained value on the used market, while the Asian built clones have remained priced for what they are - player's instruments to be used without worrying about anything happening to them on stage. If anything, the Asian "clone" market (which is now pretty much dominated by the big American companies marketing those things themselves) helped develop the high prices and value of American craftsmanship in the vintage and custom markets.

My tuba was built in a communist state that no longer exists, so I have no dog in this fight. Just saying.

[pgym]

Just a note... A lot of people are saying they would rather (from a moral standpoint) buy a used American or German horn rather than a new Chinese horn. How exactly does buying a used horn help tuba companies any more than buying a Chinese one? They're still getting zero money out of it.

I hope that's a fair question

It's a fair question.
The clone manufacture drives down the value of a quality horn. Instead of the seller getting 1/2 of what he paid, he gets 1/4. That's a substantial loss and it puts that person in a position where they have to spend less on whatever they needed the money for anyway. So instead of getting a good quality instrument with the money, he has to get something cheaper whether that's used or another ISO.
It could also be the difference of putting food on the table or Chinese made Ramen noodles.

So China and co. put higher priced products out of reach even when they're not actually making the direct sale while reaping the benefits of indirect sales.

People choosing used gear in greater numbers can help drive the demand based value higher so that quality used instruments can properly hold their value. People can't buy what they can't afford but if people can't get a good price, they won't sell until they're desperate. Getting a used horn can be ridiculously cheap, if you can find one.

You can sell 1 quality horn to get a new cheap one (if you're lucky).
You could sell a van load of cheap horns and not be able to afford a new quality one.

And how, exactly, does your pontification address Levaix's question of how buying a used horn help tuba companies any more than buying a Chinese one?

[bort]

I guess it doesn't, apart from not sending yet more money to Chinese companies. But, if you buy a used tuba from a music store, you can support that store with your purchase.

[Dan Schultz]

In my opinion... where something is made really has little to do with the economy when one considers the cost of raw materials and what it REALLY costs for the labor end of things. Typically, manufacturing in the U.S. did very well to eek out a 10% profit even when it was in its heyday. The bucks were made in the sales levels leading up to the consumer. I don't suppose this has changed much.

Now.... how can we expect to buy $15,000 tubas for $3,000?

[Donn]

What you're suggesting is pretty much the opposite of what happened in the guitar world when clones started outperforming the American stuff.

There could be a scale issue here, though. If I search a couple of large cities' craiglists for "guitar" ... who knows how many there are, results cut off at 1000. For "tuba", 2 or 3. Maybe you could think of a better way to get a quick comparison of the market, but looks to me like several orders of magnitude?

And there's a generation thing, too - these days, I've read, we older guys who wanted to be rock stars when we were kids, now have the money to buy a good guitar and the time to learn, or relearn, how to play it. Best time ever to be making expensive guitars. Guys who wanted to be tuba stars back in the day are, unfortunately, not so common.

[ginnboonmiller]

What you're suggesting is pretty much the opposite of what happened in the guitar world when clones started outperforming the American stuff.

There could be a scale issue here, though. If I search a couple of large cities' craiglists for "guitar" ... who knows how many there are, results cut off at 1000. For "tuba", 2 or 3. Maybe you could think of a better way to get a quick comparison of the market, but looks to me like several orders of magnitude?

And there's a generation thing, too - these days, I've read, we older guys who wanted to be rock stars when we were kids, now have the money to buy a good guitar and the time to learn, or relearn, how to play it. Best time ever to be making expensive guitars. Guys who wanted to be tuba stars back in the day are, unfortunately, not so common.

Good point - and no secret that I keep bringing this up because I used to sell expensive guitars. But at the same time, it's a little easier to predict the tuba market, because we can all list a good percentage of them by name. And it's not hard to posit that as a market, we'll react similarly. Those of us that want to get a Hirsbrunner will still get one, and those of us that wished we could get a decent tuba for what we have to spend on one now have a viable way to do it. Still two different markets, and they can still play off each other if manufacturers and marketers know how to react to the change in the tuba scene.

Also, given the "now we can afford a good guitar" theory - a LOT of the guitars that those guys could afford when they were kids are now priced on the vintage market at a price that only the blues lawyers can afford now. Hell, everyone played Fender stratocasters because they were cheap and the only thing at Ed's Music Emporium for a 14 year old to buy. It was pretty interesting to me, having watched a documentary about the Minutemen lately, that the working class hero guitarist was playing an "old" telecaster that generally sells for about $3500 today. He probably saved up so he could get it used for $175 in 1983.

[Michael Bush]

they can still play off each other if manufacturers and marketers know how to react to the change in the tuba scene.

This. The market is now different. That's it. It's the western manufacturers' move.