Classical music = Sinking ship

[andrew the tuba player]

The audience is there, not for education or an intellectual exercise, but for ENTERTAINMENT. Doc

Exactly my point. But, you have to entertain the audiance you want to atract. If you want to atract a younger croud you've got to be prepared to entertain them or you'll lose them. Yes, there are some younger people who enjoy Beethoven and Bach (such as myself), but to speak a spoken point, what normal teenager would rather go see a Beethoven concert than stay at home and play video games? Now, if you had a concert that had some Beethoven and some Jazz then, they may come just for the jazz. Then, they can figure out for themselves how cool classical is.

Sports analogy! I think many will agree that the slow pace of baseball is a tough sell for today's entertainment-oriented viewer, so why not have the players switch to hockey or basketball between innings, to liven things up! Here's why: the crowd came to see major league baseball, not baseball players playing struggling to play high-school level basketball. If it gets to that point, baseball is cooked.

Music and sports are totally different. That would be like compairing cars and plains. The basic need of transportation is the same, but a plane flys and a car drives.like the basic need of sports and music are to entertain. But they are completely different..People (or at least I) go to concerts to hear good music. I don't go just to hear Classical. If you put a Jazz concert at the same time as a Classical Concert then I'd probably choose jazz. But, if you combined them then It'd be much better. I'd love to go to a concert that had both 'Beethovens 5th' and 'Sing Sing Sing' on the program.
Just a little advise, you may consider listening to the audience of which you'd like to attract (young people). I'm just trying to give you my point of view as a teenager. If we could get Teens to go to our concerts then I'm pretty sure that our audiances would be considerabley larger.

[Rick Denney]

If we could get Teens to go to our concerts then I'm pretty sure that our audiances would be considerabley larger.

This goes too far. We frankly don't need teens. But we do need grownups.

For example, the hobby (definitely NOT "sport") of golf is in no danger of decline, but it attracts older folks who have the wherewithal to pursue golf as a hobby. Motorhomes are in no danger of decline (even with higher gas prices) and they definitely do not appeal to teens and twenty-somethings.

Thus, I don't think it's necessary to appeal to a young audience to remain vibrant. But I do think it's necessary to appeal to grownups, and grownups have changed in important ways in the last 20 years. But orchestral performance practice has not.

We DO NOT need hip-hop in the concert hall. In fact, we don't need orchestral arrangements of non-orchestral music in the concert hall. That would violate the medium--like asking a photograph to look like a painting or a painting to look like a photograph. It might be technically possible but it undermines the expression.

Let orchestral music be true to itself, and performers committed to its enjoyment, and then it will be true to and enjoyed by audiences. That's part of the problem with much modern music--it is not really true to the musical medium of orchestras. The instruments were made to resonate, not to produce unresonant sounds. And that's part of the problem with its presentation--it's not presented for enjoyment, but in the overly serious search of perfection and mere beauty. I'll take joy any day.

Rick "who thinks an orchestra playing hip-hop would sound silly and would be perceived as patronizing" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

Let orchestral music be true to itself, and performers committed to its enjoyment, and then it will be true to and enjoyed by audiences. That's part of the problem with much modern music--it is not really true to the musical medium of orchestras. The instruments were made to resonate, not to produce unresonant sounds. And that's part of the problem with its presentation--it's not presented for enjoyment, but in the overly serious search of perfection and mere beauty. I'll take joy any day.

Nice sentiments, but if that's really going to be the case, then someone had better cough up two pennies to cover the eyes of professional symphony orchestra music.

How many major labels are selling new recordings of classical music? Two? And one of those seems to specialize in crossover music, while the other puts out recordings of predominantly Eastern European (i.e. non-union) orchestras, albeit those recordings are quite good.

Canary in the coal mine, I think.

If live orchestral music turns out to be the province of a few cognoscenti and people who "want to be seen", it's not enough to support more than a very small handful of professional performing groups.

Happily, amateur groups will always be with us, it appears.

[Rick Denney]

How many major labels are selling new recordings of classical music? Two? And one of those seems to specialize in crossover music, while the other puts out recordings of predominantly Eastern European (i.e. non-union) orchestras, albeit those recordings are quite good.

Canary in the coal mine, I think.

If live orchestral music turns out to be the province of a few cognoscenti and people who "want to be seen", it's not enough to support more than a very small handful of professional performing groups.

Happily, amateur groups will always be with us, it appears.

Physical music recordings in general are in decline, not just orchestral music. MP3 are different, of course. But all their delivery systems are aimed at short subjects.

On the other hand, movie DVD's still sell pretty well. And many of those DVD's have spectacular orchestral music on them.

I do not equate "cognoscenti" with "grownups", by the way.

As I said previously, I don't know if the changes I suggest will work, but I know where the current straight line is pointing. And I think that's your point.

A question occurs to me: Europe seems to do all the things most often suggested as the cure for the decline of orchestral music here. They have much more extensive music education in schools, their orchestras are supported by their governments at much higher levels, and they just plain have more of them. They have a much deeper tradition of orchestral performance, and a closer connection to their heritage.

If all that is true, then why are the European record labels also abandoning classical music (if indeed they are)? Deutsche Grammophon, Angel (EMI), Teldec (which was the combination of Telefunken and was it Decca?), and many others were always based in Europe and focused on European orchestras. Are they still thriving? If not, then doesn't that indicate that physical recorded music in general is in decline?

How is concert attendance in Europe? Is it the same as described here?

Rick "thinking Chuck's canary may be in the wrong mine" Denney

[andrew the tuba player]

[quote="Rick Denney"]Motorhomes are in no danger of decline (even with higher gas prices) and they definitely do not appeal to teens and twenty-somethings.
What? I love the older massive winabagos. I like motorhomes...
so what if im a weird teenager

[andrew the tuba player]

[
We DO NOT need hip-hop in the concert hall.

Now that is true. We don't need hip hop. oops. i wasnt ready to end that one

This goes too far. We frankly don't need teens. But we do need grownups.

This is true, but if we can atract teens now, then in the future we can have them n our audiances as adults. Plus, I think It'd be good if we did have teens there. My peers do not appreaciate classical music or its beauty. I think that if we good get to them then they would start to figure out how good it is. Then, we could have a larger audiance.

[Chuck(G)]

I do not equate "cognoscenti" with "grownups", by the way.

No, but "cognoscenti" does convey the impression that a group has a special sort of knowledge or appreciation:

cognoscente \kon-yuh-SHEN-tee; kog-nuh-; -SEN-\, noun; plural cognoscenti \-tee\:
A person with special knowledge of a subject; a connoisseur.

Most non-musical grownups that I know wouldn't know a bassoon from a basin.

They have a much deeper tradition of orchestral performance, and a closer connection to their heritage.

Uh, yeah. But Europe is changing--and it's difficult to say what "heritage" will mean in 50 years.

If all that is true, then why are the European record labels also abandoning classical music (if indeed they are)? Deutsche Grammophon, Angel (EMI), Teldec (which was the combination of Telefunken and was it Decca?), and many others were always based in Europe and focused on European orchestras. Are they still thriving? If not, then doesn't that indicate that physical recorded music in general is in decline?

There's no money in classical recording. A CD that sells a thousand copies is a hit. Much of the stuff I'm seeing now by the old-line labels is reissues.

I can't say for certain if classical music is dying out in continental Europe, but the UK classical music scene is declining.

I suspect there's a reason behind much of this that hasn't been trotted out for a salute.

Around here, most orchestra concerts are given on weeknights. Who has time to go to a concert on a Thursday (or Tuesday...) night any more? People are working longer hours nowadays with more crowded schedules.

I wonder if symphony concerts would fare better in the US if they were moved to the weekend exclusively? Sunday afternoon would be a great time for a concert.

It's a rare Thursday evening that I don't have some other commitment.

Another factor is that music is now the aural wall paint for our society. Movie music is just that--it enhances the experience by providing the right room lighting. But in general, we swim through a sea of music, in elevators, supermarkets, on telephone hold, in commercials, etc. etc. etc.

It's part of the landscape and just not that special any more.

[Rick Denney]

I suspect there's a reason behind much of this that hasn't been trotted out for a salute.

Around here, most orchestra concerts are given on weeknights. Who has time to go to a concert on a Thursday (or Tuesday...) night any more? People are working longer hours nowadays with more crowded schedules.

I wonder if symphony concerts would fare better in the US if they were moved to the weekend exclusively? Sunday afternoon would be a great time for a concert.

It's a rare Thursday evening that I don't have some other commitment.

Another factor is that music is now the aural wall paint for our society. Movie music is just that--it enhances the experience by providing the right room lighting. But in general, we swim through a sea of music, in elevators, supermarkets, on telephone hold, in commercials, etc. etc. etc.

It's part of the landscape and just not that special any more.

Agreed on all counts. And I'm often busy on weekends, too.

Rick "leaving the office early tonight--at 7PM" Denney

[andrew the tuba player]

It's part of the landscape and just not that special any more.

If we make music thinking that it's not speacial, then we are already fighting for a lost cause. Music must come from inside the musician or it's just notes on a page. The musician must put his or her feelings into that particular song or else, then it will blend in with all the rest of the music in socitey. Then, it isn't speacial...But, in my views, the feelings of a person no matter what they maybe should be speacial. Every person has a mind of there own and chooses to express it in different ways. We as musicians choose music. Therefore it should be speacial.
A good example of this would be Amazeing grace...This song can do one of two things...It can either bore the listener because it's slow and boreing....or it can bring them to tears because the message of the song is so powerful and can be felt through the the sounds comeing from the group or instrument...Music can be speacial...The only thing that it requires is for the musician to put there feelings into whatever they are doing. And, I'm sure that if you can make music so powerful that you can make people cry, then they'll be back...with others. People like to get in touch with there emotions. It just takes the right thing to do it. And music, if played proporly is one of those things

[Chuck(G)]

If we make music thinking that it's not special, then we are already fighting for a lost cause. Music must come from inside the musician or it's just notes on a page.

I'm not sure I follow you. Most professionally-played music is of very high quality. We've become accustomed to hearing flawless (either by post production or by pure artistry) performances. A first horn who cracks a note in a performance of the Bruckner Konzertstück for 4 horns is not likely to get much sympathy.

I think of it like coffee.

Back in the 50's and 60's and much of the 70's, when you got a cuppa coffee, you tossed some pre-ground robustus that came out of a can into your percolator. It was terrible, but since that's what everyone had gotten used to drinking, it didn't matter.

When when of my customers gave a bag of coffee right out of the roaster (this was a coffee producer for the restaurant trade) and I took it home and brewed a pot, and put my lips to the cup--and my eyes bugged out. It was ambrosia--why didn't all coffee taste like this? I was a believer and no "cuppa" ever tasted the same again.

Nowadays, robustus beans are a quaint thing of the past, but for some of the really rotgut brands. The coffee that you brew in your home is yards and miles better than what you used to be able to get. But it's just another cup of coffee all over again. It's not special.

Think of it another way. If the city came out and paved the street in front of your house in gold, you'd think it was pretty special. But if they paved all of the streets in the city with gold, it'd be just another street and you'd cease to notice it.

That's what I mean when I say that music has become the wall paint of our life. It's just not as special as it once was.

[Dan Castillo]

Sunday afternoon would be a great time for a concert.

I dunno Chuck....that would mean having to pull people away from watching football during the fall.

[andrew the tuba player]

[quote="Chuck(G
That's what I mean when I say that music has become the wall paint of our life. It's just not as special as it once was.[/quote

So, we as musicians need to 'repaint' the wall. We need to make it speacial. I agree with you...But, I also reconise this to be a problem. I mean, if we don't even at least try to make it speacial then yes...like Pink Floyd said...We're just another brick in the wall. We just make up the musical part of soceity. But, we have to make ourselves the orange brick among the brown. We have to be notied as haveing something that people can't get by turning the radio on. Other wise, Classical music and orcastras will fall to the radio. Most people would rather just turn a dial then come to a concert. But, if we give them something more then they will come. We can't be another brick in the wall if we want a larger audiance. (I'm a major Pink Flyod fan if you couldn't tell )

[andrew the tuba player]

AWW!!! I spelled it wrong...what a shame Pink FLOYD

[DaTubaKid]

We have to be notied as haveing something that people can't get by turning the radio on.

You suggest intermixing jazz with classical music (as an example) as a solution to the "problem."

And they can't do this on the radio how?

[andrew the tuba player]

Not at all...Those are two different points...But thanks for pointing that out. Actually I was saying that we as musicians need to add more feeling and life to our music. I don't think that any speaker can match the emotional strength that a song has that is played right in front of you.....We need to bring that feeling into our music so that the audieance knows this.
As far as the jazz and classical, That was just to liven the setting up a bit. People get bored really easy. Take me for example. I love classical music. I go to a concert ever chance I get. But, once again even I tend to find my self doseing of after the second or third three movement long songs. If you threw a little jazz in here and there, then it's be alot less boreing.

[DaTubaKid]

I played jazz all through high school. I was lead trumpet in our top ensemble for three years (I'm not bragging, that only shows that our band program wasn't very good). I also played with a local youth symphony orchestra. Guess what concerts my dad fell asleep during:

Jazz concerts.

As far as livening up concerts, that's just called good programming. I actually just had my last concert with a municipal band tonight. We've played some really good stuff. Berlioz' Hungarian March, Malcom Arnold's Tam O' Shanter, Schumann's Traumeri, heck, we've even played a few pieces by Charles Ives (so they we're accepted that well..). We also spent a lot of time playing the crowd pleasers. A whole bunch of works by Warren Barker, Sousa marches galore, you name it. The band balances serious works with the crowd pleasers. I certainly don't mean to discredit your idea for intermixing jazz and classical. But it's not (completely) necessary. A good mixture of pieces the crowd will like should do it just fine.

I've been brought to tears by an incredibly moving recording of Barber's Adagio for Strings (sung by a choir). I don't believe for a SECOND that recorded music is not emotionally stimulating. Live music has the advantage of being more personal, but I highly doubt that any professional musician simply plays the notes on the page without any sort of emotion*. Yea there are those who simply show up to play the notes and receive their check. People play notes. Musician play beyond the notes.

* I make this statement as an aspiring college student who knows very little and believes that making music out of ink is the art, not playing the ink.

[Donn]

Nowadays, robustus beans are a quaint thing of the past, but for some of the really rotgut brands. The coffee that you brew in your home is yards and miles better than what you used to be able to get. But it's just another cup of coffee all over again. It's not special.

You hit that one right through my window! Latest shipment of green coffee beans arrived via UPS 4 hrs ago, and I've already roasted a couple small batches, in a hot air popcorn popper from the '80s. I've been doing this for several years, and maybe it isn't as special as it was the first month, but ... the first batch I roasted this evening was a Brazilian dry process from an estate in the Sul de Minas area, that's described by the on-line retailer in glowing terms that could only be compared to a wine review, and over the next month or two it will be interesting to see if I can pick out any of what he's talking about (goldenseal?) Tomorrow or Saturday I will probably roast a batch of the Sidamo dry process that arrived today, also new to me but I know from experience with Ethiopian coffee that I can expect an exotic treat of some fairly bold kind - my all-time favorite was the Sidamo I used to be able to get a couple years ago that had a prominent flavor like dried apricots, though you'd really have to taste it. I don't know if I can wait until Saturday.

So, well, I see what you're saying and it makes sense to me, but I guess it depends on the person. There really are millions of people who like thin, percolater brewed "can" coffee (which I believe does contain a lot of robusta, they have a steaming process that can make an inoffensive coffee-like substance out of just about any trash.) There are plenty of people like yourself, who have opted for something better, and there are a marginal few like myself who let it kind of get out of hand.

The same people listen to music. It is special to most of us, despite all the music we listen to. To others out there, it wouldn't be all that special even if they lived back in Sousa's day (Sousa railed against the recording industry, rightly of course), because they're just not there for music.

So I think I would have agreed, until you laid out that coffee analogy.

In my view this evening, the Renaissance was the golden age of what we loosely call classical music: not coincidentally, right at its beginning. What we loosely call classical music, we might more accurately call music of the aristocracy, because aristocratic patronage was its defining attribute. By the Renaissance, this hadn't screwed things up too much yet, hadn't had time. Today, it's no wonder music of the aristocracy is in disarray, since today's aristocracy is relatively ignorant and self-absorbed. I think there may be a case to be made, that we are ready to leave this model behind, and look for serious music in the forms of popular music as the Renaissance composers did. Education is the missing link.

[tofu]

-

[LoyalTubist]

What did he say?

[LoyalTubist]

If anyone here remembers Liberace, he made tons of money on playing serious music (and lawsuits, too--his most famous quote was, "I cried all the way to the bank!")

But he said something that all musicians need to remember now, some twenty years since he died:

It's called show business. Without show there is no business.