Flat keys warmer?

The bulk of the musical talk
User avatar
ZNC Dandy
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 742
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:59 pm

Post by ZNC Dandy »

Henry wrote: Curse the violins though- the buggers have gotten to the point where I just can't lip up my clarinet to pitch and there seems to be no way out other than springing for a higher pitched (442) instrument. Ah well.
Why not just play a shorter barrel, or something with a different taper? Or a mouthpiece with a different facing? I think all orchestras, as well as most band need to play at least at A=442. Especially orchestras. Nothing worse than bland sounding violins.

Also words like dark, bright, warm, cold etc etc etc are all relative terms. Not so great for describing music.
lgb&dtuba
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 886
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:55 am

Post by lgb&dtuba »

ZNC Dandy wrote: I think all orchestras, as well as most band need to play at least at A=442. Especially orchestras. Nothing worse than bland sounding violins.
Can't really speak to violins and orchestras, but why do you think bands should tune to A=442?

I don't think that the average musician, let alone the public could detect the difference between A=440 and A=442 in a band situation. Between 2 instruments where one was 440 and the other 442, sure. Otherwise, I don't think so.
User avatar
windshieldbug
Once got the "hand" as a cue
Once got the "hand" as a cue
Posts: 11516
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:41 pm
Location: 8vb

Re: Flat keys warmer?

Post by windshieldbug »

MichaelDenney wrote:Do flat keys sound warmer?
Image

In Michigan they can...
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
User avatar
Tom Holtz
Push Button Make Sound
Push Button Make Sound
Posts: 742
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Location, Location!

Post by Tom Holtz »

lgb&dtuba wrote:Can't really speak to violins and orchestras, but why do you think bands should tune to A=442?
Bands tune to B-flat!!

[/b.s.]
      
lgb&dtuba
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 886
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:55 am

Post by lgb&dtuba »

Tom Holtz wrote:
lgb&dtuba wrote:Can't really speak to violins and orchestras, but why do you think bands should tune to A=442?
Bands tune to B-flat!!

[/b.s.]
Yes, but....

This where you should tune to is a tune sharp issue. A=440 is just the reference point. Set your tuner so that A=442 and your Bb will be accordingly sharp in relation to the A=440 reference. I'll leave as an exercise to reader what the frequency of that Bb would be in each frame of reference.

I do think that 2 hz difference at 440 vs 442 hz is real

Image

though.

Jim 'YMMV' Wagner
TubaRay
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 4109
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:24 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Contact:

Post by TubaRay »

lgb&dtuba wrote:
Tom Holtz wrote:
lgb&dtuba wrote:Can't really speak to violins and orchestras, but why do you think bands should tune to A=442?
Bands tune to B-flat!!

[/b.s.]
Yes, but....

This where you should tune to is a tune sharp issue. A=440 is just the reference point. Set your tuner so that A=442 and your Bb will be accordingly sharp in relation to the A=440 reference. I'll leave as an exercise to reader what the frequency of that Bb would be in each frame of reference.

I do think that 2 hz difference at 440 vs 442 hz is real though.

Jim 'YMMV' Wagner
Thanks for setting Tom straight. I have to guess that none of the U.S. Marine Band members would know this. Does anyone think they would?
Ray Grim
The TubaMeisters
San Antonio, Tx.
lgb&dtuba
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 886
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:55 am

Post by lgb&dtuba »

Just goes to show that disingenuousness doesn't always come across as humor, doesn't it?
Allen
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 404
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:29 am
Location: Boston MA area

Post by Allen »

Regarding A=442 or more, much more, see:

viewtopic.php?t=17488&highlight=
User avatar
iiipopes
Utility Infielder
Utility Infielder
Posts: 8580
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:10 am

Post by iiipopes »

lgb&dtuba wrote:
Tom Holtz wrote:
lgb&dtuba wrote:Can't really speak to violins and orchestras, but why do you think bands should tune to A=442?
Bands tune to B-flat!!

[/b.s.]
Yes, but....

This where you should tune to is a tune sharp issue. A=440 is just the reference point. Set your tuner so that A=442 and your Bb will be accordingly sharp in relation to the A=440 reference. I'll leave as an exercise to reader what the frequency of that Bb would be in each frame of reference.

I do think that 2 hz difference at 440 vs 442 hz is real

Image

though.

Jim 'YMMV' Wagner
I gotta: 442 X 2^1/12 = @468.28
Jupiter JTU1110
"Real" Conn 36K
User avatar
Rick Denney
Resident Genius
Posts: 6650
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:18 am
Contact:

Post by Rick Denney »

Allen wrote:A good player will be able to play an instrument in tune, even though the centers of resonances in the instrument are not exactly on the notes the musician wants to sound.

Of course, there's the other sort of player we're all familiar with, one who mashes down the buttons corresponding to the official fingering of the note, blows into the instrument, and discovers the sound the instrument makes.
There is a third category: Musicians who control their pitch adequately, but choose a different pitch for a different reason. The correct pitch will depend on the scale degree and a whole variety of other things that are beyond my understanding. Most people, even good players, try to make their contribution to the chord sound as good as possible in real time. We've already heard reports of quintets with skilled players who still don't make good choices about which pitch to play. Some skilled players have trained their pitch sense by sitting in front of a tuner to the extent that the sound in their head is equally tempered, with all the associated compromises.

I agree that musicians who can play in tune will make whatever adjustments are necessary. But I also suspect that playing in tune in the keys they are more accustomed to might require a bit less work than playing in tune in keys they are not accustomed to, especially if they do a lot of slide-pulling. And more especially if they really do try to make those chords resonate instead of playing an equally tempered scale.

And some instruments are not controllable in terms of pitch, as you know. I suspect some of these traditional views about the sounds of particular keys grew out of keyboard instruments that don't have controllable pitches. As you know, most of them were tuned to favor the more common keys, given that equal temperament is a sub-optimal compromise.

Rick "who has seen pros rehearsing with a tuner running on their stands" Denney
User avatar
windshieldbug
Once got the "hand" as a cue
Once got the "hand" as a cue
Posts: 11516
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:41 pm
Location: 8vb

Post by windshieldbug »

Rick Denney wrote:who has seen pros rehearsing with a tuner running on their stands
All the time. But when you start playing with a group, that goes right out the window because of the temprements used...

and the Tuba fundamental IS CC (or BBb, or Eb, or F, or C, or... ) so that THAT overtone series is prominent, NOT DDb, etc.

so one had best learn to adjust... !
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
Allen
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 404
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:29 am
Location: Boston MA area

Post by Allen »

Rick, I agree. I'd like to relate two anecdotes:

My brother mostly plays modal music, and likes to tune his own piano to suit, and it certainly sounds better with him playing than an equal temperament-tuned piano. The fun begins when someone else plays his piano, particularly when they use jazz chords. It sounds dreadful. My brother is generally amused.

Lately in my band we are playing a modern piece (it premiered last year). The tubas are in divisi, playing in tritones a lot. At the end of the piece, the tubas are holding notes a tenth apart (A and C#). I asked the director about how to tune things, as it seemed to me that the only thing to do with tritones is to play equally tempered pitches. The director said, yes, that's what he wanted. Then, I asked about the pitch of the final held C#. Should it be in equal temperament or should it be a just-tuned third based on the low A? He said he wanted a perfect third (tenth). Well, the piece ends with the tubas and others playing an A-major chord, then other instruments coming in with their different chords until all twelve notes are represented. The instruction I got was to hold that pitch, even when all the others came in. I'll not state my opinion of all this. I will say that it's beyond my comprehension!

Cheers,
Allen
Post Reply