Classical music = Sinking ship

[lgb&dtuba]

I wonder if there's another factor contributing to the decline of classical music that we haven't really dealt with much here. Boredom.

By that I mean that there is pretty much a set repertoire. There is very little, if any, new orchestral music being written outside of background music for movies. Just how many times can you listen to the same pieces before you just plain get bored at hearing them? Where would rock music performers be today if all they played was the best of the Beatles? (Answer - on a forum like this bemoaning the death of the rock combo.)

I'm intentionally leaving out all the experimental "modern" stuff. Does anyone other than musicians really like that stuff anyway?

I used to listen to classical music all the time. Just like I used to listen to the oldies station on the radio. Eventually it just got boring to listen to each orchestra's nearly indistinguishable recording of the same works over and over.

If there's going to be any kind of resurgence in orchestral music popularity it seems to me that it's not up to the musicians. It's up to the composers. Can anyone name a great living and working composer of orchestral music other than those few working for the movies? Or name a popular symphony composed in the past 20 years? Where are the Bachs, Beethovens and Brahms of this generation?

[lgb&dtuba]

There has been a homogenization of sound. You can't discern one orchestra from another to the degree you could in the past.

Especially if they're just all playing the same stuff.

[George]

Have you ever tried to ask people if they've been to an orchestra concert before? Thier response is hardly ever, "It's too boring", or "They all sound the same", or "They need to play selections from the Romantic era," when I ask it's almost always, "I've never thought about it."

As far as most people know we don't exist, very few people know what a tuba is and if they do they're thinking of Omm-Pah.

No one really knows what an orchestra plays, if you tell an orchestra is on most movie scores they usually seem surprised.

We need exposure, every other potential issue pales in comparison.

[lgb&dtuba]

Have you ever tried to ask people if they've been to an orchestra concert before? Thier response is hardly ever, "It's too boring", or "They all sound the same", or "They need to play selections from the Romantic era," when I ask it's almost always, "I've never thought about it."

As far as most people know we don't exist, very few people know what a tuba is and if they do they're thinking of Omm-Pah.

No one really knows what an orchestra plays, if you tell an orchestra is on most movie scores they usually seem surprised.

We need exposure, every other potential issue pales in comparison.

Well, I haven't asked anyone under the age of 21.

I don't know anyone approaching my age (60) who hasn't been to a concert at least one time during their lives. And the most common reason that they don't go regularly or at all is that they do find it boring. Not especially entertaining.

For what it is worth, the NC Symphony seems to be well attended around here. Not by me. But by quite a few.

[lgb&dtuba]

I'm not going to say all classical music is great, but I can say with confidence that much more time, preparation, and musicianship goes into a classical music performance that other genres, such as rock/rap/pop.

Really?

Do you think that a top end rock band spends less time, preparation and has less musicianship or are you trying to make your comparison against a garage band?

I would contend that a top end rock band member spends more time (or at least as much time) as the average orchestral member on his music. After all, it's not a union job.

Or do you think Eric Clapton just picked up his guitar and started playing?

The actual truth is that a really good musician, regardless of the instrument or genre, will have spent most of his waking hours working on his skills. That "we play classical so we're better than anyone else" crap certainly doesn't do a lot to attract an audience.

[lgb&dtuba]

Miller, er Franziskaner time!

[andrew the tuba player]

I will agree with him on that one. Like I said before, everyone has there own mind. If we don't except there ways of expressing it, then how can we ever expect people to except ours? And, yes I can tell you, on the pieces that i have written, I spent just as much time and effort writeing out a rock song as a full band score.
And, yeah, we do need some people to step up and write some really good classical style music. I afree on that going to three concerts and hearing the same songs over and over again gets old in a hurry (although, if you're still wondering where a band that played only the best of the Beatles would be, they'd hopefully be in my liveing room )
Exposures a good topic to. If you dont know anything about something then you probably won't go to it. If the average Joe sees a sign that says 'bassoon recital' he's probably not going to go because he has no idea what it is.

[TubaRay]

That "we play classical so we're better than anyone else" crap certainly doesn't do a lot to attract an audience.

Ring the bell, Jim, you are today's winner!


Show him what he's won, boys...


Doc

I can see what he's won!

[Rick Denney]

No, I know that there are great musicians in every genre, but I would say that a lot of musicians in the popular genres are not "masters" per se of their particular instrument, using 3 simple power chords to make a song. In contrast, a musician in an orchestra has spent years and years perfecting his/her instrument. I'm not trying to create a condescending attitude though. It's just that with the general public, the catchier tune is always going to be bigger than the tune with the complex harmonic devices or whatnot.

Ain't nothin' wrong with catchy tunes.

But I don't hear that many catchy tunes (or tunes at all) in lots of popular stuff. What I do hear are cultural references to the current teen rebellion of the day. (And every "day" has it's characteristic teen rebellion.) I suspect people listen to music less for the musical content than for the cultural connection it provides.

Rick "thinking this is why music is often at the front lines of the culture wars" Denney

[lgb&dtuba]

But I don't hear that many catchy tunes (or tunes at all) in lots of popular stuff.

What'll it take to make you scream?



Play some rap.

[Chuck(G)]

One thing that kills any type of music is getting into a rut.

Listening to the Eurovision Song Contest entries this year really drove that home to me. The group from Sweden sounded pretty much like ABBA, just like they've sounded for heaven knows how many years. I could really see why the entry from Serbia won--it was fresh and different (though I thought the Irish entry showed better technique).

I can readily see where a group of tenured professionals in a nonprofit-endowment-supported venture could easily fall into a rut.

When I listen to some of the 50's rock groups, I'm surprised at how awful--and how popular--they were. But they offered something new--and that usually trumps polished technique.

A lot of life is "Change or die".

[LoyalTubist]

During World War II, ASCAP wouldn't allow any of its music to be played on radio. Consequently, this hurt record sales of such popular performers as Glenn Miller, Harry James, Artie Shaw, Kay Kyser, Horace Heidt, etc.

So, what these guys did was have someone in their bands (who wasn't an ASCAP member) write arrangements of such composers as Beethoven, Chopin, and Tchaikovsky. Freddy Martin did really well with a tune called "Tonight We Love," which was based on the first movement of Tchaikovky's First Piano Concerto--it had also been used by Orson Welles as the theme of his "Mercury Theater" radio program.

This led to a group of composers who wrote only for broadcasting, BMI.

[windshieldbug]

[windshieldbug]

I hate to tell you, but it isn't the musician's attitudes that are this way. It's the Board's and the audiences...

[lgb&dtuba]

I hate to tell you, but it isn't the musician's attitudes that are this way. It's the Board's and the audiences...

In this case I was directly responding to what a musician posted. It may extend beyond that as you note, but it certainly is the attitude of a number of musicians, some of who post here.

Edited to carefully add, nor do I think that snobby attitude extends to all classical musicians.

[windshieldbug]

Sorry, perhaps I'm just a little hyper-sensitive...

[andrew the tuba player]

I agree. I mean, just because we play classical music doesnt make us better musicians. That's like the 'football player' mentality in high school. When a kid in our school becomes a football player (or any sports for that matter...but football's the worse),they (being, most of them...there are a few who don't) think that they're the best thing that ever happened to the world and everybody treets them like it. We can't fall into this mentallity. I love playing in my (well, our) garage band. and, I don't think that The other people in it are any less of a musician as i am. They just chose a different style. But, i guess I'm just rambling on about things we already know...I'm pretty good at that .

[LoyalTubist]

I agree. I mean, just because we play classical music doesnt make us better musicians. That's like the 'football player' mentality in high school. When a kid in our school becomes a football player (or any sports for that matter...but football's the worse),they (being, most of them...there are a few who don't) think that they're the best thing that ever happened to the world and everybody treets them like it. We can't fall into this mentallity. I love playing in my (well, our) garage band. and, I don't think that The other people in it are any less of a musician as i am. They just chose a different style. But, i guess I'm just rambling on about things we already know...I'm pretty good at that .

This came 33 years too late for me...

I can remember my high school senior government class. We had the smart kids (I wasn't one of them, even though I was at the top of this class--my math skills were atrocious!) and the first stringers from the varsity football team in the class.

Anyway, who were the only students offered full scholarships to college? Of course, it was the football players who could barely write their names! Now I am not one to speak harshly of football. I know it brings a lot of revenue to schools. And I am not one of those people who thinks that life has to be fair--life isn't fair.

Ironically, the first student to receive a full scholarship (if I remember correctly, it was the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana) only got to use that scholarship for a couple of years. He was injured during the game, so the university took the scholarship away from him (this was in the contract he signed that this could happen). I don't know what happened to that guy. He never showed up for any of the alumni gatherings we've had over the years--others who had to drop out of college various reasons and became janitors, hospital orderlies, and security guards have been there along with the doctors, teachers, dentists, and police officers all along.

To get back on topic, what if there were no more professional symphony orchestras? What if the only serious concerts we could go to were school concerts? And the only real professional musicians with any chance of success were in military bands?

[andrew the tuba player]

I'm not one to usally bash football either. I find it fun and i'm pretty good freinds with a couple of them. But, its the ones that hate me for my talent. the ones that threaten to beat me when i just say 'hi'...but its the same mentality.
what if there where only professional wind symphoines??
Hey man, as long as theres tubas, i'm there

[brattom]

...so why no marching orchestras?

From http://www.usarmyband.com/strings/the_u ... rings.html

The U.S. Army Strolling Strings is one of the most requested musical ensembles by our nation’s military leadership. Since its inception during the Eisenhower administration, the group has provided musical entertainment at the White House for every president. Missions include performing for the Department of Defense, the U.S. Capitol, the Supreme Court, kings and queens, and heads of state from countries worldwide. The Strolling Strings offers audiences the unique perspective of being amongst the musicians who elegantly move about the venue playing their instruments. A distinctly unique member of its instrumentation, the ensemble boasts an accordion, which adds rich color and texture to the group’s sound. The Strolling Strings offers a wide array of memorized repertoire including patriotic, classical, international, jazz, Broadway, bluegrass, and exclusive music arrangements for special guests and events.