Roger Bobo on the BBb

[Chuck(G)]

Very interesting, Tony!

So, if a BBb in any size and configuration is beyond the physical capabilities of the human body, then the CC must be nearly so.

So, for the best results we should all be playing Eb or F, ne c'est pas?


..and that bass horn in G of his must have been downright impossible--as is the contrabass bugle

[AndyCat]

Well.... not that I haven't the greatest respect for Mr. Bobo.... but.....

I'd like him to actually hear and play with some of the best BBb players in the Brass Band World, IN a Brass Band, on BBb Bass music, before he generalises like that.

Tools for the job I think it's called. And abiding by the rules. Only EEb and BBb's allowed in brass band contests, disqualification if you turn up with an F or CC. IF it's spotted of course.

And, in answer to an earlier post, yes, it is what I sound best on. Til he's heard me on both I'll call it a complete mistruth (assumption) on his part. Especially for what I, personally, am required to do in my music making.

Admittedly, he'll never have to play what I have to, nor would want to (Probably!)

[NickJones]

I agree with you Andy , UK has some fantastic BBb players , Dean Morley , Gary Proctor, Mr Cattanach ,Darren West, Matt Routley , Danny Sinclair , John Gillam , Andy Clegg , Tony Nash , Peter Denton, Simon Gresswell , Rob Dewsbury and Jon Davies.
Having played in Bands with some of these guys and hearing these gents at close quarters , It is an instrument that does take a lot of filling and these boys do it with skill .
hats off to this lot..

[big_blue_tubist]

Leave this kind of [certainly very accurate] description to a tuba player.... :lol::lol:

Filling and Containing
http://www.tubanews.com/articles/contentid-7.html

[MikeMason]

Has anyone ever seen Matt Good or James Jenkins in person? Not physical giants,but they can both raise the roof when needed with 6\4 horns(and James on a HUGE 22" bell York BBb).Mr. Bobo is always thougt provoking with his articles,but for every absolute statement,we can always find many exceptions.

[Rick Denney]

So how 'bout it:

Is the "FILLED AND CONTAINED" sound "just beyond" our physiological abilities on a BBb tuba???

I didn't read the "filled and contained" sound article, but if the words match the sound of Bobo playing, then that sound is likely not what you'd pick up a large tuba to create. Bobo never played a particularly large tuba--his largest was a 188, right? All his solo work was done on a 184 CC or (later) even a 621 F. To me, his whole sound concept is built around relatively smaller instruments.

While I find that sound concept exciting in the extreme, I do not think it is the only valid sound concept out there. There are many players who have gone for breadth with focus, while Bobo's sound is focus first and foremost. I've listened to all sorts of sounds on orchestral recordings and in person, and I find the breadth of Jacobs or those who follow his model as musically valid as Bobo's Power Sound.

So, if Bobo is saying, "you can't get the kind of sound I particularly like using a big tuba, particularly a Bb tuba", I would be more inclined to take it at face value.

Every preacher has his heresy, of course. Even the best ones.

As to the challenge I have issued many times stating that one cannot tell the difference by listening whether a good performer is playing a Bb or a C tuba, I stand by that. Bobo will be listening for something very specific, something that many players may not even be seeking. The rest of mortal mankind will be listening more generally. Tubas are primarily an ensemble instrument measured by what they do in support of corporeal musical objectives, not by whether they impress even the greatest among tuba players.

Can a 5% increase in the air volume of the bugle make that big a difference? A Miraphone 186 Bb and 186 C, for example, have the same bell and valve bodies. The instrument doesn't go conical until the crook of the tuning slide, which is about five feet down the bugle from the mouthpiece. The bell stacks are the same on the two instruments, which means that the last three feet of the bugle is the same. So, a 186 Bb expands from around .8 inches bore to around 4" bore in 10 feet of bugle, and the 186 C does so in about 8 feet of bugle. If the taper is uniform in that part of each instrument, the difference in air volume will be about 100 cubic inches, out of an instrument that has an air volume of about 2000 cubic inches (most of it in the bell stack). The degree of taper will make a bigger difference, it seems to me, and this varies all over the place.

One final point: Has Mr. Bobo listened to the same players switching back and forth between similar Bb and C instruments, noting that he got "filled and contained" more when they played C instruments? I rather doubt it. I think he finds that Bb players, as a class, don't give him what he's looking for than C players, as a class. I think that is more a comparison of the players than the instruments.

Rick "who wonders if anyone listens with the same set of standards as Bobo" Denney

[Charlie Goodman]

What I don't understand is the rationale: I understood that playing the tuba (button mashing and slide pulling aside) has to do with buzzing the lips in the mouthpiece. It seems like even non-giants-of-men could produce the buzz necessary to "fill the horn." Unless there's a certain buzz that one can't achieve without being a physical giant, the idea that only the largest people can sustain the right buzz for the BBb horn seems irrational to me.

[Mark]

And the times I have, huge male players were playing them!

Uhh... Never mind.

[Charlie Goodman]

Quoting Roger Bobo, arguing over what he meant, and justifying personal decisions based on those arguments reminds me of some boring/stupid Sunday school classes I've sat through.

Oh, blow it out your-- well, something other than a BBb tuba, anyway.

[Donn]

What I don't understand is the rationale: I understood that playing the tuba (button mashing and slide pulling aside) has to do with buzzing the lips in the mouthpiece. It seems like even non-giants-of-men could produce the buzz necessary to "fill the horn." Unless there's a certain buzz that one can't achieve without being a physical giant, the idea that only the largest people can sustain the right buzz for the BBb horn seems irrational to me.

Now I'm at the other end of the tuba playing universe from anyone Roger Bobo would have ever cared to listen to, but I think I may know the feeling. Honestly I associate it with a very small Eb tuba, and currently I'm just doing what I can to bring that to a big-enough-to-be-useful Eb.

I have a big Bb sousaphone, and used to have a big 5/4 Bb German tuba, and I can make the notes on these instruments, I can play loud, but I don't feel so much like I fill them up - I would have described it in these terms too, though I might not have thought of such an appealing comparison.

But like I say, someone in Bobo's league who plays Bb tuba would be another thing altogether. I hope they would be amused, because obviously he's way out of bounds as I guess would be pretty much expected. But taken with Rick's observation about his style, it's an interesting perspective that might give people something to think about.

[iiipopes]

After reading this article, I am reminded of a quote attributed to Confucius: Learning without thought is useless. Thought without learning is dangerous. I see a lot of both in the articles and this thread.

[iiipopes]

If the physical aspects of an instrument change, there will be a difference, albeit ever so subtle, in the response, intonation and overtones. It has to be. Two items of different size cannot within the laws of physics react exactly the same. It is a difference that is probably so subtle most people can't hear it, and also so subtle that most people, myself included, do not play to a degree where any differences heard can be solely attributed to a horn. Whether Mr. Bobo can hear or produce these subtle differences I leave to another discussion.

I'll have a shot and a draw and a six-pack to go.

[iiipopes]

Indeed. But to get out into the hall, you gotta start with your lips buzzing and figure out a mouthpiece, horn and technique to get it there (I know, "No duh"). So occasionally you have to chop a tree here and there to get a path through the forest. That's what this thread is, if you will: chopping a tree or two to make a path through the forest. And if the forest is anything like it should be, it'll take the largest BAT possible for everyone to hear it! (The image of the horns with the auxillary mouthpieces for more than one person to play to make it louder in Dr. Seuss' "Horton Hears a Who" comes to mind....)