Bass Tuba Questions

[TexTuba]

Hello everyone! I have been reading some of the recent posts about F and Eb tubas, and I realized that I know nothing about them! So when looking for a bass tuba, does it really matter between an Eb or an F? What are some pros and cons between these two types of tubas? I am not trying to start an "Eb vs F" debate, I am just trying to get some opinions and advice on bass tubas since I will be looking for one this coming fall. Thank you for any and all advice in advance!

Ralph

[windshieldbug]

If you ask me (which you did, in a round-about way... ) I think there's more difference to the sound (bore, proportion, size, playability) of Continental-style vrs English-style than there is in key.

[quinterbourne]

A lot of people are going to say that you should try both and pick one that you like regardless of key. That will be a good suggestion. But also consider:

How much time are you willing to give to learn the horn? Do you play on a CC tuba now? If you have played anything in Bb treble clef (ie trumpet, euph/baritone TC, BBb tuba in brass band) then learning Eb tuba will be real easy. You just read the bass clef as if it was Bb treble clef. Learning F tuba is a bit more difficult.

In MY opinion, you should use an F tuba for bass tuba parts in orchestra and an Eb tuba for Eb tuba parts in Brass Band. Brass quintet: either or, but I prefer CC. Band/Wind Ensemble: Eb tuba for the top line. I definitely wouldn't use an F tuba in Wind Ensemble or Brass Band, but that's me. Also, an F tuba is probably the better choice for a lot solo rep (ie Vaughn Williams). Although, there are a lot of people out there (Pat Sheridan) who solo on Eb.

However, Eb works ok in orchestra. My teacher plays and Eb tuba for bass tuba parts in her orchestra. Personal choice I guess.

Most Eb tubas can be considered to have a "British" sound. Most F tubas have a "German" sound. Or you could get a Yamaha F tuba with an... "American" sound.

Best of luck, keep your options open.

[Onebaplayer]

I hear it as the same difference between BBb and CC. Even between Bb and C trumpets you get a change in tone. They are both bass tubas, with tonal characteristics to go with both. I think F tuba is a little brighter.

[Donn]

I am fortunate to have 2 similar helicons of Czech manufacture, in F and Eb, and in fact the F is quite a bit brighter.

But though it's quite true, I offer it as an absurd comment. They're visibly designed to have these differences - the Eb has a fatter bell for example - and while we could perhaps guess that this will often be the case, it isn't by any means a fundamental property of F and Eb tubas, and it makes much more sense to look for these kinds of things in the design than the key.

Eb is a nice key for some things, though, and there seems to be a broader selection of tuba shapes and sizes for Eb.

Speaking of design differences and bass tubas, maybe there ought to be a separate monster bass category - contrabass > monster bass > bass. Not that it would help make the tubas fall more neatly into their classifications, they'll still be all over the place, but maybe it helps describes the difference in intention between people who want an Eb or F tuba for different things.

[windshieldbug]

I have a late one, made in Williamsport, Pa. I actually used it for a couple of years in the symphony when I needed a smaller bore horn, until I got my MW F.

Here is a picture of one from Kenton Scott's Horn-u-copia:

[windshieldbug]

It plays like a small English F; it does not have the big sound of a modern British Eb (the bell is maybe half the size, and it's non-compensating). I found that as long as you didn't push the mouthpiece too large, it could have a nice, BIG euphonium-like sound. It was definately made before the advent of an American low brass balls-to-the-wall sound with the requisite huge bass bone.

It was way too small (though very dark and full) to use regularly, and I only pulled it out if the music called for it. It still played well though, with judicious alternate fingerings.

Very nice quintet sound, but I had a 184 CC for that.

[windshieldbug]

Mine was made in 1898, has a 15" bell, and is about .656.

If the Belmonte works, go for the receiver. If it has issues, too, I'd try a few others and only go for the receiver if you need to. Sometimes a new receiver can throw that off, too, but not that often in my experience.

However, if it works and goes in, why mess with it at all?

[Lew]

In another post, it says that small Ebs were used in American orchestras after the ophicleide, the name Distin is mentioned.

Does anyone have one of these, or at least a picture?

I have 3 Distin Eb tubas, although don't have a photo handy. One is almost playable and the other 2 are in very rough shape. There seem to be 2 basic sizes that he made, one with a 14-15" bell and one with a 17-18" bell. I have 2 of the smaller ones and one of the larger ones. I'm sure that once the one that has all of the parts is restored it will be a great playing horn. My BBb Distin (the horn in my avatar) is among the best playing BBb tubas I have ever tried.

[Lew]

...
Eb is a nice key for some things, though, and there seems to be a broader selection of tuba shapes and sizes for Eb.

...

There may have been more Eb designs at one time, but it seems to me that there is a much larger selection of new F tuba models available than there are Eb tuba models. This is especially true with Besson not making anything for the moment.

[Rick Denney]

Mine was made in 1898, has a 15" bell, and is about .656.

My Missenharter, which came to me as an Eb, has these exact dimensions, and is about the same vintage--perhaps a hair older.

I cut it to F. And despite some unfortunate results in the intonation of the low register, it doesn't sound any different as an F than it did as an Eb.

My nickname for it is "soldering practice".

I suspect it's a pretty typical concert Eb tuba from 19th-century America, before bands and tubas got big. It's not as fancy as a Distin, but Missenharter was still a well-known brand and this one had four valves, making it a practical instrument for orchestral use in that day.



This is it before the surgery, as an Eb ebay special.

Rick "thinking fatties are a 20th-century phenomenon" Denney

[TexTuba]

First, thank you all very much for some great thoughts and opinions. Yes, I do play on a CC now. And the use for a bass tuba would be for ensembles such as quintet and orchestra. After reading many posts on this thread, I get the feeling that Eb is mainly for brass band use. It's not to say that I believe that it's its only purpose, but that seemed to be the general use of them. Does anyone here play an Eb with orchestra? If so, is it just preference or something else? I do appreciate all of the replies and I do understand that it is truly going to be my decision ultimately. I am asking all of these questions because I want to make an informed purchase in the coming months. Thanks again!

Ralph

[windshieldbug]

Is that picture of yours? Does it have good false tones?

No, but mine looks very similar. The false tones on mine are certainly workable. It may well be your horn, you might try some other early Eb's, if you can find them. What I used with mine was about a "modern" big bass trombone-sized mouthpiece (I have several vintage Eb mouthpieces, and they're about the same size).

I suspect it's a pretty typical concert Eb tuba from 19th-century America, before bands and tubas got big. It's not as fancy as a Distin, but Missenharter was still a well-known brand and this one had four valves, making it a practical instrument for orchestral use in that day.

In my experience, these were about as big as they got in the nineteenth century. The sound shift south is definately a twentieth century taste. For one thing, remember that American orchestras and bands were mostly amateur affairs, used for people to enjoy music before records or radio. The big Eb sound definately came with British brass bands.

Missenharter (1870-1892) or Coleman/Missenharter (1872-1917) made nice instruments. I have a Coleman/Missenharter Eb "raincatcher" that I used quite often before the crash for cornet band music.

[Chuck(G)]

I have 3 Distin Eb tubas, although don't have a photo handy. One is almost playable and the other 2 are in very rough shape. There seem to be 2 basic sizes that he made, one with a 14-15" bell and one with a 17-18" bell. I have 2 of the smaller ones and one of the larger ones. I'm sure that once the one that has all of the parts is restored it will be a great playing horn. My BBb Distin (the horn in my avatar) is among the best playing BBb tubas I have ever tried.

I've got an 1890-something Distin Eb with a 15" bell in very good condition that's a blast to play. Mine was the old high-pitch model (which most tubas were before 1900), so I replaced all of the tuning slides, lengthening them. Intonation over all, is quite good.

It's a very light instrument, with lots of engraving and decorative ferrules, but only 3 valves. It might hold its own where a light tuba sound was needed.

As far as I can tell, the "monster Eb" tubas came on the scene in the mid 1890's (I've got a "JW York and Son" (not "Sons") in the shop right now, so that places it to at least 1898). These generally employ much heavier construction than the older light-gauge instruments and tend to be not as responsive, although some can be quite nice.

Some "American" instruments aren't American at all. I've got a little Lyon and Healy (high pitch again) Eb with top-sprung valves that was clearly made in France. It's not a very good Eb--the leadpipe+tuning slide measures something like 32 inches in length and the open octaves are even out of tune. I suspect it may make a decent F, however.

Around 1900, that was considered to be a "plus"--many "Tourville-Paris" instruments were actually made by Bohland and Fuchs!

Not long ago, Bob Rusk sold a little Distin that he fitted with 5 valves. I'm kind of sorry that I missed that one!

[Lew]

Cool, do any of them have 4 valves?

Did these serve as unofficial protypes/trendsetters for brands of later years.

I don't have any 4 valve Distin horns, but I have heard of a 4 valve, front action Distin BBb tuba, and have seen Distin 5 valve double bell euphoniums and 4 valve euphoniums. The euphoniums are all non-compensating 3+1 or 3+2 configurations.

Henry Distin started playing with his family's brass quintet, and then started out as a distributor for Adolph Sax's instruments in England. He then started his own instrument manufacturing company in London, which was bought by Thomas Boosey, so one could argue that Distin's designs were the prototypes for Boosey & Hawkes/Besson brasses.

[finnbogi]

Does anyone here play an Eb with orchestra? If so, is it just preference or something else?

My E flat tuba (Besson 981) is my main horn; I use it in bands, orchestras, quintets and almost everything else. Then again, I haven't got an F tuba. I have, however, got access to a B flat tuba, which I sometimes play (in order to remember the fingerings) and seldom use.
When I decided to buy a bass tuba, I was lucky enough to be able to borrow a friend's F tuba (PT-12) and a band's E flat tuba (Besson 982) for a few weeks. After these weeks, I felt that the E flat was a better all-round horn, and I preferred the darker, broader sound of the E flat to the straighter, brighter, more German sound of the F, so that's what I bought.
So, for the second question: In my case it is a mixture of preference and the fact that I own too few tubas.

[LoyalTubist]

He's been dead for almost 20 years, but what did John Fletcher play?