Style over substance and the golden mean....

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:02 am

Fortunately, there is a normal Gaussian distribution, so that, while there may be less demand at the polar extremes, it is, none-the-less, satisfied.

Tubaryan12 · Post by **Tubaryan12** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:15 pm

I think that the biggest problem is that there is no medium. The truly artistic repairmen seem to be few and far between (in distance and in number from me) and there are way too many that I am afraid to leave my horn with (like the guy that couldn't string the rotors correctly). What the instrument repair world needs is the equivalent of that auto mechanic around the corner that does outstanding work for good prices but just on the simple things (brakes, starters, alternators, etc). If I ever had the extra loot to drop on a restore job, I could find several folks that post here that would do an outstanding job. Now, I'm afraid that if I drop it off to have the dent taken out of the lead pipe it might come back worse.

ASTuba · Post by **ASTuba** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:54 am

Tubaryan12 wrote:I think that the biggest problem is that there is no medium. The truly artistic repairmen seem to be few and far between (in distance and in number from me) and there are way too many that I am afraid to leave my horn with (like the guy that couldn't string the rotors correctly). What the instrument repair world needs is the equivalent of that auto mechanic around the corner that does outstanding work for good prices but just on the simple things (brakes, starters, alternators, etc). If I ever had the extra loot to drop on a restore job, I could find several folks that post here that would do an outstanding job. Now, I'm afraid that if I drop it off to have the dent taken out of the lead pipe it might come back worse.

There are many repair technicians like this Ryan. The problem I ran into, which is why I quit the business, is that 90% of music stores don't care about quality in repair, they just want you to fix 5-10 horns a day and make them as much money as possible. It's been bread into music store owners that repair is a "break-even" category, and that there is no money to be made in repair.

The other problem is that there is no certification for repair technicians. I believe that all band repair technicians should be made to take a certification test, kind of like the ASE that car mechanics take.

Repair was a lot of fun, but I just got so sick and tired of hearing about profit, bottom line, when I did more that $15,000 more in repairs than that store did last year in 4 months, so I walked away from it, and I'll be happy if I never fix another instrument again.

Hope this helps.

Andy Smith

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:13 am

Henry wrote:Whoyagonnacall?

Hornbusters!

Stefan Kac · Post by **Stefan Kac** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:25 pm

Tubaryan12 wrote:What the instrument repair world needs is the equivalent of that auto mechanic around the corner that does outstanding work for good prices but just on the simple things (brakes, starters, alternators, etc).

Right...er, well...I'm not so sure there are too many of those mechanics left either. The combination of rudeness and incompetence that both I and my parents have experienced over the past couple of years has been just terrible. I've been lucky with instrument repair so far. Cars are another matter. And don't even get me started on the bike shops, which have been about as frustrating as what some of your are describing with your horns.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:32 pm

Henry, I believe that your first post sets a record for the length of a paragraph on this BBS.

Congratulations!

Tubaryan12 · Post by **Tubaryan12** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:02 pm

SpartanContra wrote:...I'm just glad that Matt Walters is an easy weekend trip away from me....

There are lots of folks on this board that are a weekend trip away. My problem is that I only own 1 horn. What I need is another horn so that I can drop the good one off to be fixed and play the beater while its gone.

Daniel C. Oberloh · Post by **Daniel C. Oberloh** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:36 am

There is so much here I would like to address, unfortunately, I am so slow at typing that it is hard for me to keep a coherent thought long enough to get it down. I apologize if this is the case.

Sadly, it is true there are not as many talented Techs as the players would like. There is a reason that the craft suffers from a lack of skilled individuals who possess a sense of professionalism. Yes, it would be great to see some sort of training programs that set standards of quality for the industry, but in my opinion, that is pie in the sky thinking - who would give and judge this test? Let's get back to reality. Like most businesses that operate to make a profit, good quality service and workmanship will do just that - make a profit - and if priced appropriately, along with a sense of fairness, will keep clients happily returning with repeat business while weeding out those "cheapskates" who want a hard days labor for fifty bucks and don't want to pay sales tax.

WARNING- Blunt reality statement: Most new Techs barely know enough to tell you where the business end of a dent hammer is let alone how to properly repair a damaged valve casing or expertly repad an oboe. After completing a year long "technical college" OH WOW!

program, most start working in a shop for a music company repairing rental horns. Many quit with in five years because they find the job tedious and not paying as well as other available work. I personally think it is because they are simply not cut out for this line of work. I mean, you can have all the fancy brushes and paint but that doesn't make you an artist. The part they don't understand is that time spent working in these places is where one builds speed and knowledge through observation and first hand experience on the bench. The speed, skill and better pay comes with time, like most skilled jobs. I am sorry you had such a hard time of it Andy, I hope eventually you will be able to return to the trade and give it another shot.

I have spoken with several and hired a few new repair school graduates who, in some cases, were quite full of themselves (performance/ed. degrees and former band directors

). They were so put out when they found out they were to work only on rentals. Being the foreman in a repair shop with 11,000 rentals, I had reservations with even letting them empty the trash, let alone work on our walk-in customers' gear. Now this was not always the case and I got to work with some very fine people who developed great skill, but they were the ones who came out of the old two year programs and they busted their asses, doing what needed to be done. They were hired in and learned from the veterans in the shop. Not only did they learn more advanced repair but they developed an understanding of how little they really knew and an appreciation for the higher skilled folks in the repair staff who were their safety net when things went wrong. Many shops hire minimal skilled repair Technicians who do a good deal of floundering around trying to do their best, and that is a sad situation to be in, especially if you have no one to turn to for knowledgeable advice. The Shop that has several Techs and no Master Journeyman or Foreman is doomed to fail with the customers and will probably only financially break even at best.

A shop must have someone who sets the standards of quality and is the go-to-guy when any issue arises, whether it be repair matters, dealing with management, repair staff issues or customer relations.

I find that my own training both in repair and silversmithing helped me gain an appreciation for the real teachers and craftsmen of the trade along with the hard working newbies who are trying so hard to earn our trust. It has also given me nothing short of total disdain for the multitude of low skilled, lazy posers that have pretended to join our ranks in recent years.

My own observation is that the customer often has no sense of what is involved in the trade and how much knowledge and serious skill is needed to truly deliver the services they seek. Educating customers helps them to achieve an understanding and in most cases an appreciation of the work being done on their behalf. I am not excusing those with the attitude who can't walk the talk, I have seen and heard plenty of what they have to offer and there is no need for me to add any more than has already been said. However, I will add that the shops that spend a good deal of time talking about how great they are tend to have little to show in the way of quality work and if they don't talk themselves up, who will?

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
www.oberloh.com

ASTuba · Post by **ASTuba** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:35 am

Daniel C. Oberloh wrote:WARNING- Blunt reality statement: Most new Techs barely know enough to tell you where the business end of a dent hammer is let alone how to properly repair a damaged valve casing or expertly repad an oboe. After completing a year long "technical college" OH WOW! program, most start working in a shop for a music company repairing rental horns. Many quit with in five years because they find the job tedious and not paying as well as other available work. I personally think it is because they are simply not cut out for this line of work. I mean, you can have all the fancy brushes and paint but that doesn't make you an artist. The part they don't understand is that time spent working in these places is where one builds speed and knowledge through observation and first hand experience on the bench. The speed, skill and better pay comes with time, like most skilled jobs. I am sorry you had such a hard time of it Andy, I hope eventually you will be able to return to the trade and give it another shot.

Dan,

I never have had any problems working on rental stock. I did it for over a year at Music & Arts in Atlanta, and actually was glad for it. Got my speed a lot better.

My biggest problem is that music store owners feel like repair isn't profitable, and therefore don't invest any money into it. When I left my last job, I was so sick and tired of begging for money for things like a vise that actually will hold a mandrel without rotating or moving, or pads and cork, which is why I just decided to walk away.

I'm not in a financial position to start my own business, although it's something I thought about long and hard, but I also realize that I don't have a 100% clue of what I'm doing, I've only been repairing for 3 years!

I hope it works out for me as well, but no bitterness here if this is the end.

ASTuba · Post by **ASTuba** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:56 pm

Henry wrote:On the other hand, based on a sample of the two items I bought from you on two occasions and only on that small sample, and with the full acknowledgement that your shop was willing to have an item shipped back and make it right when contacted though I chose to make it right myself, I'm still mad that a shop which touts its quality endlessly sent me a great looking horn with rotten guts and a similar mouthpiece on two separate occasions. Its a 100% failure rate in that small sample and though you may regard trumpets of less worthy of attention to detail than the majestic constructs of the low brass world I would have thought quality, where it shows and where it doesn't, counts.

Sounds like something that should be left to the two individuals involved and nobody else.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:04 pm

At the most, I think one rant should do it.

Daniel C. Oberloh · Post by **Daniel C. Oberloh** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:34 pm

Damn right I "tout quality endlessly" and I stand behind every piece of work that my shop produces 100% and if a customer is *ever* not satisfied for *any* reason whatsoever I will *always* make it right or refund their money. Period. I do strive for perfection and although I attain it most of the time, I am a mere mortal and fall short of that mark on occasion. If a trumpet went out of my shop with problems all I can say is, it shouldn't have happened and had you returned the instrument we would have made it right. No ifs, and or buts!

But let's cut to the chase. It sounds like your real problem with me is that I insist on embracing the ideals of quality, integrity and a love of the craft (even though I may occasionally fall short of the goal) and would like to see other repairmen hold themselves to the same ideals. My posts here typically focus on respect for the craftsmanship of the trade, the instruments, the history and the musicians - not how great a repairman I might think myself to be.

Again, if you have a problem I can actually do something about, please feel free to contact me.

Daniel C. Oberloh
Repair Technician to the Stars (Floyd and Emma Star, summering in Tokeland Wa. at the Annual (sort of) Jerry Garcia Memorial Singalong and Clambake) (tie-dye optional)
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
www.oberloh.com

ASTuba · Post by **ASTuba** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:08 pm

harold wrote:
Henry wrote:You on the other hand, show every sign of being an ***.
As far as asses go, you can bet that you aren't even in my league. That doesn't even begin to address the point that you elected to make by making this thread personal.

By your own admission, he gave you good viable options that you chose not to exercise. Then instead of contacting him outside of this board, you try to humiliate him in a public forum.

I still believe that Dan Oberloh even on his worst day doing poor work is far better than most all others on their best day. The guy is as honest as the day is long.

You on the other hand are starting a post by complaining about a job that was performed years ago. I happen to know a lot about the specific instrument in question because I purchased it from a junk shop in Allen, Michigan. Compared to what it was when I bought it, it was a thing of beauty when you did and the price on it wasn't nearly what I thought it should be.

What you are forgetting is that while it looked like new, it in fact was decades old. Dan I'm certain was willing to do whatever it took to do right by you. For you to claim that you were somehow "manhandled" by his shop is far less than honest. The most amazing thing about capitalism is that you can spend your dollars anywhere you like - even at the local shop where they do some band instrument repairs. Obviously this is the best option for you.

The only thing that I can figure is that you are trying to play this horn with the wrong part of your anatomy.

Guys,

Listen, if you're going to keep discussing this in a public forum, it's only going to make all of you look like asses. Take it off of here, no one cares!

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:35 am

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:27 pm

When someone airs a gripe about a particular commercial transaction in public, I frown, shrug, and walk away. It's the same response to someone smoking in an elevator, or having a loud, lewd conversation in a restaurant.

There are much better avenues for rectification, including working it out directly between the parties, seeking mediation, and taking legal action. A public gripe is not an efficient righter of wrongs and most often brings about results unfair and disproportional to one party or another (or both). There is no way for the Tubenet Freak Jury to know or obtain all the facts, even assuming we would know what to do with them.

That doesn't mean it's inappropriate to talk about repair philosophy, and whether it is possible to find an effective middle ground between perfect craftsmanship and minimal competent playability. I suspect good techs are capable of both, but some are so skilled and in demand that they are unwilling to waste their time on minimal repairs, and some are happier to keep more instruments playing than to spend inordinate hours striving for cosmetic perfection. We've had many discussions like these in the past, without naming specific cases. We have technicians of undeniable competence across the range of those philosophies participating in these conversations.

Henry, when you specifically mentioned the horn in question as you did in your first post, you named names. Sorry, but that's how I see it. But you others, who didn't just shrug and walk away are just as guilty of making it personal. The Freak Jury should know its limitations, even if someone tempts them to pass judgment.

Rick "who hasn't found perfection yet" Denney