Whether to trade up from my old Martin??

[patentnonsense]

My only tuba is a huge old silver BBb Martin 3v with a "raincatcher" upright bell, and though I like it a lot I think I might do better with something more modern and forgiving. I'm not, honestly, a very good tubist, and I'd like to improve my own skills with a more forgiving horn. Also, while I like the big sound, I wouldn't mind having something smaller to take to rehearsals!

I've posted my horn's details on a thread in ForSale, but I'm not at all sure I really want to sell it - so I'm asking for advice here. I tried a VMI 2103 and liked it, and I'm thinking that something like that or larger might be a better fit. My main playing goal is community band; I like playing around with classical transcriptions, but that's more for funsies than a serious performance goal. Right now my goal is big beautiful sound, seamless registers, and a uniform scale with good intonation. I need to find a local teacher again, so all this is just preliminary to personal work with a good teacher - but, that said, I'd appreciate advice.

Playing: my Martin has a big bottom, and a very nice false tone on the lower Eb, but gets fluffy below that. Bob Pallansch was able to sound the fundamental, but I never have. Its top is very good to high F only - but high F is enough for Berlioz ophicleide parts. 3rd overtone F is a little fluffy, and so is the 5th overtone D, but otherwise the open notes seem pretty good.

Cosmetics: everything works, unrestored, no major dents - but the leadpipe has been patched. The silver plating is mostly worn away.

The bell is 24.5". Bore at second valve is only .725" or so. Overall height is 35". SN is 197xx, which someone told me (long ago) dates it to 1919 or so.

I had my 14 year old stepson hold it to show the scale - but he's only 5'5", and you can see that this horn is a bit large for him.



Polite suggestions welcome...

[iiipopes]

I would be glad to "do you the service" of relieving your burden of it!

Seriously, call Matt, Dan, Lee, Dan, bloke, Andy or one of the other scoundrels on the forum and see what they would do about a valve replate and a 4th valve. That Martin, assuming it's in otherwise good shape, deserves to be preserved, conserved, brought up to date and PLAYED!

FWIW, your bell is larger than a Conn Cav, Pan Am or 14k souzy bell, if only by 1/2 inch.

Don't be concerned with the bore size. With the short lead pipe directly into the valve block, it plays much larger. A new lead pipe may solve your intonation issues. If not, it will at least make them more manageable.

I got to play a Martin Eb some time ago, and I would like to play it again. Only because of their relative rarity, when someone asks me about a souzy, do I not recommend them, because I'm looking for one for ME.

You have more there than you think, albeit not as much as one might like with it only being 3 valves: a good respectible horn with a good history and care. As I said above, I would have the leadpipe replaced, a 4th valve added, replate and relap the valves, make sure the top pull on the 1st valve works well, and ENJOY!

Then if you want to add a newer, more "fashionable" or "popular" tuba later, you always can.

[MartyNeilan]

From what I understand, it is literally impossible to just add a fourth valve on the top action Martins due to the placement of the valve cluster and wrap; it would require replacing the entire valve cluster with a four valve on. But, then again, the three valve ones were said to play better and the false tones were outstanding.
I am not sure if this is the case on the front action horns, but it is worth examining.
.

[ASTuba]

From what I understand, it is literally impossible to just add a fourth valve on the top action Martins due to the placement of the valve cluster and wrap; it would require replacing the entire valve cluster with a four valve on. But, then again, the three valve ones were said to play better and the false tones were outstanding.
I am not sure if this is the case on the front action horns, but it is worth examining.
.

My bigger concern is trying to find .725" tubing and a valve. That's not a common size, as far as my limited knowledge, of valves. It would have to be off an existing Martin.

or..... you could just chop it to CC..... kidding.

[jacobg]

From what I understand, it is literally impossible to just add a fourth valve on the top action Martins due to the placement of the valve cluster and wrap; it would require replacing the entire valve cluster with a four valve on.
.

Has anyone ever made a dependant 4th valve, built off of the 3rd valve slide? It would give you chromatic range down to the pedal BBb except for an Eb. But what if you made it a major 3rd with an kicker down to a fourth, so you could throw it out when you wanted a low B?

[Chuck(G)]

My bigger concern is trying to find .725" tubing and a valve. That's not a common size, as far as my limited knowledge, of valves. It would have to be off an existing Martin.

or..... you could just chop it to CC..... kidding.

Tubing from a Besson 0.730 would work just fine--and there's no rule saying that the 4th valve has to be the same bore as the first 3. In fact, you'd probably get better results with a larger 4th bore--say 0.750. It also seems to me that Buescher used about a 0.720" bore--close enough.

If anyone's interested, I've got a 3v Martin top-action cluster that I might part with if offered suitable inducements.

[SplatterTone]

I think Holton 346 is .730 ... I think.

[ASTuba]

My bigger concern is trying to find .725" tubing and a valve. That's not a common size, as far as my limited knowledge, of valves. It would have to be off an existing Martin.

or..... you could just chop it to CC..... kidding.

Tubing from a Besson 0.730 would work just fine--and there's no rule saying that the 4th valve has to be the same bore as the first 3. In fact, you'd probably get better results with a larger 4th bore--say 0.750. It also seems to me that Buescher used about a 0.720" bore--close enough.

If anyone's interested, I've got a 3v Martin top-action cluster that I might part with if offered suitable inducements.

Chuck,

You're right, but since he was talking about trying to keep it as original as possible, that's why I made that posting.

[imperialbari]

Odd measurements will appear from time to time. Sometimes caused by inadequate measuring tools, sometimes by not being trained in taking proper measurements, and sometimes by wear.

I have a Conn 26K, which has the unlikely inner bore of 0.691 or 0.693 of the 2nd valve slide. Ain’t gonna verify this with my calliper at this time of the night. That 2nd slide probably has been sitting a bit loose at some point of time and has been slightly expanded over a cone.

Adding a fourth valve probably most easily would be done as a larger bore past-the-main-tuning-slide rotor of adequate bore. Brazing a 4th piston on the existing valve block takes a level of craftsmanship, which I only trust Joe Sellmansberger and Daniel Oberloh to be in command of. And they have long waiting lists.

Another modern 0.732 four piston block might be bought, maybe even coming out with a lesser drain to ones purse.

If it weren’t for lack of space that old biggie would be welcome here as is.

If I could be sent a thorough photo documentation of this beauty, I wouldn’t protest too vehemently.

YorkMasterBBb@yahoo.com

Please .jpg format in 300dpi. Blueprint type front and back shots plus adequate details and readable shots of the full engraving.

The end goal of course would be my galleries.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Really cool tuba, would be fun to see how she plays.

I think Holton 346 is .730 ... I think.

If you mistyped and ment Holton 345 it has a .750'' bore and a .790 forth valve.

Since it looks like this thread is going in this direction....can any of the repair gurus on this thread give a ball park figure to replate a 5/4 York Master in silver? something I'm looking to do at the end of the year.

Well, what can I say? hold it up close to your computer and we will see if we can get a close look at it and determine how much work it will need prior to plate?)

Forth Valve: I can and have made valves in the past , this is not something that I would say is impossible but it is very difficult as a "one off" project. If you want such a process undertaken and want it to look like it has always been there and not a cobbled together mess, It will take a skilled Technician with good machiening skills (and the proper tooling) as much as a week to desighn, fabricate and install (maybe longer). Cost?: What does it cost per hour to have your car's transmission repaired? You can do the math.

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
www.oberloh.com

[patentnonsense]

Really cool tuba, would be fun to see how she plays.

Call me if you ever fly through Dallas! I was very impressed by your big Martin project.

[Tom Holtz]

Wow. Great horn. Bet she puts the smack-dab on the ol' dogfights.

[iiipopes]

OK, so a 4th valve may not be cost effective. But if you have 3 pulled for 23 to be in tune, and the 1st slide is accessible, you may not need it, especially if it does have good false pedals.

[MartyNeilan]

OK, so a 4th valve may not be cost effective. But if you have 3 pulled for 23 to be in tune, and the 1st slide is accessible, you may not need it, especially if it does have good false pedals.

From what I remember on my Martin, the 3rd valve was on the flat side pushed all the way in. I usually had to lip up 23 a slight bit. But it made 13 good and 123 lippable. I also did have easy access to the 1st and 3rd slides on my top action horn, just kept my hand underneath them.

[Donn]

3rd overtone F is a little fluffy, and so is the 5th overtone D, but otherwise the open notes seem pretty good.

If you can dig up a sousaphone tuning bit, you might try it. Just going on vague memory of having read that some of the big old top valve Martins were built that way, so maybe your front valve likewise. Nice looking horn, by the way.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Call me if you ever fly through Dallas! I was very impressed by your big Martin project.

Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. The owner was very patien but really tickeled when I delivered it to him. I'm not sure if I will make it back to Texas anytime soon but who knows? I lived in Corpus in the early 70s, Spent a lot of time at Wilferd Hall (sp) medical in San Antono but have not made it back since.

If you can dig up a sousaphone tuning bit, you might try it. Just going on vague memory of having read that some of the big old top valve Martins were built that way, so maybe your front valve likewise.

Yeah Donn, they did but that was done on a differant and later model. These instruments have some issues that can be corrected but it often involves a valve rebuild and some minor and at times not so minor tweeking. Still, it would not hurt.

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
www.oberloh.com