B&S PT-10 or Yamaha 621

[ajacobus]

Hey Everyone, I'm looking to buy an F tuba, and I'm having a really tough time deciding which would be a better buy.

I am looking for good orchestral playing, solo playing, and small ensemble playing.

I know the PT-10 is incredible in the higher register for orchestral playing, but has a very tough and small lower range, and the 621 is versitile all-round, but doesn't have the same punch as the PT-10 in the high register.

Any thoughts on the subject??

[Rick Denney]

Hey Everyone, I'm looking to buy an F tuba, and I'm having a really tough time deciding which would be a better buy.

I am looking for good orchestral playing, solo playing, and small ensemble playing.

I know the PT-10 is incredible in the higher register for orchestral playing, but has a very tough and small lower range, and the 621 is versitile all-round, but doesn't have the same punch as the PT-10 in the high register.

Any thoughts on the subject??

You might consider the B&S PT-9, which is supposedly like the original pre-Parantucci Symphonie model. That instrument in many ways redefined the orchestral F.

It definitely has the power to sustain itself in a large ensemble, though its projection is still typical of an F tuba. It does not emulate a small contrabass the way some F's do.

In my testing of various B&S models, the enlargement of the bore on the first and fifth valves, which makes the main difference betwen the PT-9 and the PT-10, made the low C less focused.

But if I can play the low C on a B&S, anyone can.

Getting a characteristic F sound from a 621 requires a characteristic F mouthpiece, in my opinion, and that makes the low C a little more like it is on other F tubas.

The 621 has better and easier pitch, though this apparently varies from one example to the next. The main problem with the 621 is that it just has a limit, and if you try to push it beyond that limit, it will back up on you. The only way to move beyond that barrier is to use a shallower mouthpiece and go trombone-like.

That's an advantage in quintet, where being able to emulate a bass trombone is particularly useful for many works, and where that sort of sound provides a better blend and less departure from the sound of the group.

But in a big group, the 621 will hit the wall. That was THE reason I bought the B&S. I compared the two by asking Dr. Sloan to listen to each from 20 feet away in the Elephant Room of the Army Conference a few years ago. At the same effort and apparent loudness from my perspective, he could clearly hear the B&S but the Yamaha remained lost in the noise.

If I had to have one, and if playing in a large ensemble had equal weight, I'd probably have to go with the B&S. It's easier to make the B&S work in the low register than it is to make the 621 project through a big group.

Rick "who owns both" Denney

[jonesbrass]

I'd have to agree with Rick on this one. The other big thing is to try several PT-10s or PT-9s. There is variation betweeen the horns, of course, and you could find one that plays better for you than the rest. The other thing is that we really can't expect the low range on an F sound or respond the same way they do on a C or BBb tuba- by trying to achieve that sometimes the manufacturers compromise other playing characteristics that make the F tubas great in the first place. Happy hunting!!

[MartyNeilan]

The two horns couldn't be more different. IMHO, the Yammie would be a better quintet / small brass ensemble horn while the B&S would be a better horn for solos and excerpts. The Yamaha is going to be easier to play and have relatively good intonation (good for an F tuba) without having to work to hard at it.

P.S. I know where you can find a nice 6 valve F tuba with a decent low range and great projection at a reasonable price.

[cjk]

Hey Everyone, I'm looking to buy an F tuba, and I'm having a really tough time deciding which would be a better buy.

I am looking for good orchestral playing, solo playing, and small ensemble playing.

I know the PT-10 is incredible in the higher register for orchestral playing, but has a very tough and small lower range, and the 621 is versitile all-round, but doesn't have the same punch as the PT-10 in the high register.

Any thoughts on the subject??

You might consider the B&S PT-9, which is supposedly like the original pre-Parantucci Symphonie model. That instrument in many ways redefined the orchestral F.

It definitely has the power to sustain itself in a large ensemble, though its projection is still typical of an F tuba. It does not emulate a small contrabass the way some F's do.

In my testing of various B&S models, the enlargement of the bore on the first and fifth valves, which makes the main difference betwen the PT-9 and the PT-10, made the low C less focused.

But if I can play the low C on a B&S, anyone can.

Getting a characteristic F sound from a 621 requires a characteristic F mouthpiece, in my opinion, and that makes the low C a little more like it is on other F tubas.

The 621 has better and easier pitch, though this apparently varies from one example to the next. The main problem with the 621 is that it just has a limit, and if you try to push it beyond that limit, it will back up on you. The only way to move beyond that barrier is to use a shallower mouthpiece and go trombone-like.
...

I agree with you on all but one point. I think that most B&S F tubas have far superior intonation to the Yamaha 621, but B&S F tubas are less consistent.

To the OP, get the PT-10 or PT-9. To my ear, B&S F tubas sound like what F tubas are supposed to sound like. While I find the Yamaha 621 easy to play, in most players' hands, it's difficult or uninteresting to listen to.

If this is your first F tuba, MY suggestion is to buy a B&S and learn to play it. While I like the older "Symphonie" models better, the newer ones are just fine. I would also play a Miraphone Firebird if you have the opportunity.

The two horns couldn't be more different. IMHO, the Yammie would be a better quintet / small brass ensemble horn while the B&S would be a better horn for solos and excerpts. The Yamaha is going to be easier to play and have relatively good intonation (good for an F tuba) without having to work to hard at it.

P.S. I know where you can find a nice 6 valve F tuba with a decent low range and great projection at a reasonable price.

While it depends on what you consider a reasonable price , the Miraphone Firebird and Meinl Weston 46SLZ both have pretty good low range and really good pitch. Of those two, I'd personally pick the Firebird because I feel the 46SLZ is a little too large. I like the Miraphone Firebird. It's an excellent instrument.

[MartyNeilan]

P.S. I know where you can find a nice 6 valve F tuba with a decent low range and great projection at a reasonable price.

While it depends on what you consider a reasonable price , the Miraphone Firebird and Meinl Weston 46SLZ both have pretty good low range and really good pitch. Of those two, I'd personally pick the Firebird because I feel the 46SLZ is a little too large. I like the Miraphone Firebird. It's an excellent instrument.

I was thinking of $2600 as a very reasonable price:
viewtopic.php?t=21724

[MartyNeilan]

I agree with everyone who has posted to this thread. I have owned both a PT10 and the 621 F tuba. In fact my 621 had previously been Marty Neilan's... If I had to choose between the two, I would go back to the PT10. During the time I owned the 621 it was all kinds of fun to play....but it only had depth of sound in a very small room and as a solo instrument. Quintet members did not like it and I didn't like having to play as loud as possible most of the time. However, I sold it to buy a 45slp and everyone was happy until the BIG VALVES started to take a toll on my hand and forearm. I sold it and eventually ended up with a Willson 3400 and couldn't be happier. Along the way I also owned a MW2141 Eb and it was a superb instrument. The valves would drag quite often but it did have a great sound and good intonation.


Short anwser: I'd go with the PT10 or Marty's 6 valve F tuba(Most likely Marty's tuba).

Thanks for the recommendation!! Having owned both, I would say one of the biggest advantages to the 621F is that you didn't have to play it like an F tuba, you could play it like a 3/4 CC tuba. That may either be good or bad depending. It was one of those horns you could walk away from for a month and then come back and pick it up and play without any issues. If you try to play most rotary F tubas like a CC tuba, including mine, the low register will be sharp, the high register will be flat, and all sorts of funky things will happen. FWIW, I find that the large bore quint valve works wonders for Bb and below on my horn, and I don't really understand why it is not more popular. My rotary F does have outstanding projection compared to the Yamaha, even moreso than some "vanilla" souding CC tubas. I thought Zach (aka ZNCDandy) was going to blow the roof off when he was playing around on it last week. The extra bracing helps to further hold the bottom end together.
I found it interesting that when I played BBb / F tubas the low C was even less of an issue than the CC / F combo: On a BBb tuba you are used to blowing through that 6 foot long 4th valve to play a low C; moving air through about 24 total feet of tubing feet of tubing vs the open low C on a 16 foot CC horn. Maybe that is just one more reason why the German's (BBb / F players) don't seem to make half the issue that we Americans (CC / F) do over low C on F tubas.

[cjk]

... $2600 as a very reasonable price:
viewtopic.php?t=21724

Yeah, Marty's instrument is a good F tuba. Good price too.

[Steve Inman]

I 2nd the Firebird. The low register, including the low C, speaks very easily. This was the FIRST rotary F tuba I played where I thought the low C was "good". Not perfect, but good, solid and easy -- really -- it took no special concentration to the note on the one I was playing. I was quite surprised, having given up on the hope that there might some day be a rotary F tuba with an easily playable low C.

IIRC, Roger Lewis has some experience with the JBL Classic B&S F tuba (may own one?). You could get an opinion from him on this horn, but it agrees w/ Bloke's stated above -- a very good F tuba. I hope I can try one out sometime.

Regards,