Sousaphone Saga

[Udi]

Hey there TubeNet wise people.
After I got good advice in this forum about a year ago concerning sousaphones, I got myself an overhauled '69 Conn 14k and enjoyed carrying it around stage (the reason I got it), and also found out I love it's direct, warm and versatile sound, and made it my own playing in jazzy, funky, ethnic an rock contexts.
What I wasn't happy with was intonation. I discussed it a bit here on tubenet, and heard a few thoughts. The time that passed and experiences I had made me a bit more knowledgeable and much more confused.
So my problems are a low C and B in the staff, getting better when played 13 and 123 respectively, a fundamental that has to be lipped down considerably, and a general tendency of notes not "slotting". I can play it in tune slowly while looking at a tuner.
I should say I found no leaks in the valves, and that using another tuning bit (I use two) didn't do any good, nor did the little experimenting I did with a few mouthepieces.
Now, I play sharp. On any horn, I need to pull the main tuning slide more than other players (I'm working on it). Playing my Conn, I really pull a lot. Some people said this overall sharpness and other tuning problems might be a result of the relacquering and overhaul job.
In Israel, we don't have repair-persons who know a lot about sousaphones, but I had the pleasure of playing with my group in the Montreal jazz fest (counted at least 8 sousaphones or tubas in the ensembles performing while we were there) and visiting NYC for a single gig while we were at the continent. So I took my horn to a good repairman in NYC, considering putting a trigger on the the 1'st valve, and he looked and listened and concluded that the horn has untypical tuning problems and he'll have to shorten here and there and would make a longer neck, and he wouldn't go into that if he were me. I was sad to hear that, but happy to know this is not typical, all I had to do was find a better 14/20K and go happily on with my life.
I didn't think I had a chance of finding one on the few more days before I fly home, but when I came to Dillon's Music in Jersey to look for a certain mouthpiece, I was playing some of the great tubas they there, and saw a 20K that' has been through a lot hanging on the wall. I played a few notes, got my stuff and left. By evening, after pondering it for a while, I called Mat at the shop and said I'm considering a trade-in and explained I was flying the day after and he most graciously did a thorough job, de-dented and chemical bathed the horn and had it ready for me by morning. I really appreciated that.
At the shop I didn't hide the reason I wanted to sell my souzy, and Mat took it to his workshop while I tried the 20K. I enjoyed its short stroke valves a lot, and didn't think it was a bigger burden than my 14K, and also tried another sousaphone body with my bell, that Mat told me was a student model 14K he was doing a job on for a custumer. It was very similiar to my horn, but more simply made (only two screws holding the bell, for example).
Mat, too, said my horn has peculiar tuning problems, but I was very surprised that these two horns, according to my tuner and ears, had the exact same problems I had with mine. The 20K also had a flat 5'th, which I'm told is normal, and I can't say for sure if they slotted a bit better, but I had to lip down the fundemental, and C and B in the staff were flat if played by me or by Mat.
Tuning problems unsolved, I compared their sound and decided that specific horn sound was inferior to the one I have, and left, to my surprise with the same instrument I came in with.

What to do? I feel these tuning problems a too big burden on my playing for the long run. Did these samples give me a wrong impression? Is there someone making great sousaphones right now? Another old model I should check? Are the new Souzys by Conn really not as good as the old ones, like everyone says?

[iiipopes]

First, if you really like the 14k better, stick with it. Second, check the tuning of your 23 valve combination. It is usually sharp as well, and most people, including myself, pull the 3rd valve slide to get the Db and Gb in tune and leave it there, or even pull a little more to make it a hair flat to help out 1-3.

I don't know if this would help on your horn, but it helped out on the Conn Cavalier, predecessor to the 14K, that I used to play, and I've posted elsewhere: have the top loop of the 1st valve slide that lays under your left hand converted to a pull slide. that way you can pull @ 1/2 inch for 12 combinations G & D, and pull as necessary for 1-3 C & low F and 123 B nat and low E nat. I've also done that for the souzy I now use, and in addition to its long 3rd valve slide, the movable upper 1st valve slide it takes care of most intonation issues.

Finally, if you are that sharp, a couple of things: 1) work on dropping and relaxing your jaw and throat while keeping firm embouchure at the corners of your mouth, especially on downward lip slurs, and 2) if it will still adjust to you, try a 3rd bit as well.

What mouthpiece are you using?

[WakinAZ]

If physical obstruction is ruled out per Bloke's test, how about having a U.S. tech (cough, cough) make you a slightly longer main tuning slide?

Also the moveable first slide modification suggested by iiip is a good idea for any Conn sousa.

Bottom line is it's never gonna play like your PT, but with alternate fingerings, etc. it should be manageable. You bought it for the sound and for stand-up gigs, right?

Sounds like you might have gotten one of the few bad examples of this model that slipped out of the factory. 1969 was a transition year, I believe - last year for Elkhart.

Eric "recovering Conn sousaphone owner" L.

[Udi]

Thanks for taking time to consider my problems!

check the tuning of your 23 valve combination. It is usually sharp as well, and most people, including myself, pull the 3rd valve slide to get the Db and Gb in tune and leave it there, or even pull a little more to make it a hair flat to help out 1-3.

On the Conn 14K ... they went ahead and built the #3 slide to be in tune for the 2-3 ... If you want 1-3 and 1-2-3 to be flatter ... you'll have to pull #3 and put up with the flat 2-3

I have no trouble with 23. That 13 is already flat as is it is, so I wouldn't want to flatten it more. I guess that means something is wrong, because 13 is notoriously a sharp combination.

have the top loop of the 1st valve slide that lays under your left hand converted to a pull slide. that way you can pull @ 1/2 inch for 12 combinations G & D, and pull as necessary for 1-3 C & low F and 123 B nat and low E nat.

I remembered your advice, and that's the exact modification I was planning on making when I came to the states. The repairman suggested putting a trigger so as not to cut the horn and minimize interference, but when looked into it, we could both see that the 1'st valve tuning slide needed shortening and not lengthening, used by itself or in combination. He wasn't happy to go into that. Something about an inner tube in that 1'st valve tubing which makes cutting more problematic.

What mouthpiece are you using?

I now use a Roger Bobo solo mouthpiece. I used a PT -50+ for a long time before that.

Quite a few old sousaphones (of all makes) have a leaky connection between the neck and its receiver.

That leak (often a BAD leak) can make an instrument perform unpredictably

Interesting, I never checked that direction. How should you check for a leak there?

You are one of the universally-likeable people on TubeNet. Everyone wants to help...but the instrument is 10K miles away from many folks

Why, thank you! Maybe I should send it to you to have a look at it.

Have you removed the main slide, inserted a marble and shaken it all the way around the instrument until it exits the bell receiver end?

I'll do that and tell you what I found.

how about having a U.S. tech (cough, cough) make you a slightly longer main tuning slide?

I got that suggestion a few times from different people but never got it, though I'd love to understand - If I pull a lot but still have enough tuning slide, how could a longer tuning slide help me?

Bottom line is it's never gonna play like your PT, but with alternate fingerings, etc. it should be manageable. You bought it for the sound and for stand-up gigs, right?

To say the truth, I play only sousaphone in all the ensembles I play in and in pop up gigs. I use my PT today just for practice and some recordings. I'd say you're completely right if I wouldn't hear Nat McIntosh play sousaphone. That's the caliber I'm aiming at. I know it's possible.

Sounds like you might have gotten one of the few bad examples of this model that slipped out of the factory.

That's what I thought, but I found these uncharacteristic problems in two other sousaphones (The 20K was from '63) Am I the problem?

[Udi]

Have you removed the main slide, inserted a marble and shaken it all the way around the instrument until it exits the bell receiver end?

Did it, went through with no problem at all

[WakinAZ]

Hmm, sounds like you are struggling with the problem of the first and third valve slides being too long, then. On a three valve horn, as you might already know, these are left intentionally long to compensate for the 1-3 and 1-2-3 combinations. You might have to start cutting the slides about a cm at time until you get where you want. If no tech in your area will do it, you could do it yourself with a fine tooth hacksaw (steady, steady). Then next time you are in Europe or the US, they could pretty it up for you. I have struggled a bit with this on my older King concert tuba, see this thread: viewtopic.php?t=22648&highlight= I ended up leaving it for now - after I spent some more time with a tuner, I realized a lot of the problem was my inconsistent, crappy chops. You, being a pro, are probably better off in that department.

I'm having trouble sorting out what the problem notes are, but if C two ledger lines below the bass clef staff and the low B natural below it are very flat when the main tuning slide has the open horn in tune, then there is a leak in the valves or tubing or the slides were cut way too long at the factory.

C in the bass cleff staff fingered as 1 will most likely be flat to some extent on any BBb, so you will have to finger it 1-3 for slow or exposed passages if yours is really flat.

Can you post the problem notes in this format so we can discern what they are easier?

EXAMPLE: C two ledger lines below bass clef staff is XX cents flat/sharp when fingered 1-3

I think the problem is your first valve slide is probably too long, but hard to tell so far. As far as the "you" part of the problem, I think that your good ear and something about the way you play are exaggerating the intonation tendencies of a three valve Conn sousa, especially if you notice the same things on other similar horns. While not perfect, these horns are pretty consistent when they are in good mechanical shape.

I can't remember if you are still a student or not, but do you have teacher/mentor? You definitely need some local expertise.

Eric "trying to help" L.

[iiipopes]

What WakinAZ said. I'm sorry I did not understand in your initial post exactly what the tuning problems were. I agree that with open valve notes tuned to pitch with the main tuning slide, that if some of the valve combinations are flat, then you might have too long individual valve slide outer tubes, assuming no leaks. If you have leaks, nothing is going to help until the leaks are fixed. Until I decide whether or not to spend the money having them fixed properly, I've even wrapped a couple of offending leaky joints on my beloved Besson BBb 3-valve comp with golfer's lead tape to tame leaks and get the horn back to playing in tune with itself.

Without going into a lot of theory and math, unless you really want me to, please suffice to say that all valve combinations of two or three valves, unless the tubes have been extended, should play sharp. So "normal" for a souzy (with second space C and C#, and middle line Db and D excepted) should be that open is in tune; 2nd is in tune or just a few cents flat to help out 12 combination; 1 is in tune or just a few cents flat to help with 12 and 13 combinations; 3 is flat by itself so 23 is in tune, or even a little longer so that 23 in combination is a couple more cents flat to help with 13 & 123 combinations; 12 is a few to several cents sharp; and 13 is a little sharp and 123 is noticably sharp, bordering on the unusable without lipping or pulling. If the valve combinations are flat, yes, your tubes are probably too long.

But I disagree that it is a big deal to change them or correct their length. Usually, unsoldering only a brace or two to get to the slides, then judicious trimming of only @ 1/2 inch or so at a time until you get close, then less until you get it short enough, is easy to do. I've had my tech shorten the 1st valve slide on a Conn 2J 3/4 CC tuba so I could get a "push" to get the naturally flat 5th partials in tune without alternate fingerings, and I've had two souzys worked on getting the top loops of the 1st valve slide made into working slides. It all cases it was rather straightforward, and did not cost that much. Then again, I had a good local tech.

One way to figure out how much tubing to cut off the individual valve slide is to warm up, then take an electronic tuner that reads number of cents sharp or flat, and tune your open 2nd line Bb pure. Then play your 1st valve Ab and note how many cents flat it is. Then play the open Bb again, and see how much further you have to pull the main tuning slide from where it was before in tune to the same number of cents flat as the Ab is. This is how much tubing you cut off to shorten the individual valve slide.

[Donn]

You might have to start cutting the slides about a cm at time until you get where you want. If no tech in your area will do it, you could do it yourself with a fine tooth hacksaw (steady, steady).
...
Eric "trying to help" L.

Reminds me of a scene in ``Gypsy Caravan'', where an hour before going on stage before a huge packed house in NY or something, a couple of members of Taraf de Haidouks are sawing off a tuning slide, helicon I think.

I don't know if this situation calls for surgery or not, I'm not qualified to say, but as the man said - we're 10K miles away (I think that's a Chinese thing - in old Chinese texts like the Tao Te Ching, they say "ten thousand" when they mean "a lot more than you could easily count.")

[WakinAZ]

Udi - what happened?

Eric "noticing him online" L.