Maybe curiosity will kill me...
Anyways, since we have quite a few repair people on this forum, which would be a better school for repair and why? I'm looking at these two, and see both the positives and negatives...
Also, let me know if there is something better that I haven't thought of.(and I know about apprenticeships)
Tuba"wanting to see both sides, hopefully which one is better"guy9
Western Iowa Tech or Red Wing for Repair school?
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tubaguy9
- 4 valves
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- Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:07 pm
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Western Iowa Tech or Red Wing for Repair school?
I think I might end up as a grumpy old man when I get old...
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Daniel C. Oberloh
- pro musician
- Posts: 547
- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:22 pm
- Location: Seattle Washington
Warning: The following comments may but are not meant to insult or belittle anyone in the repair trade or those interested in entering said trade.
There are a hand full of respected Repair Folks on this list that are very experienced in many ways while there are others who have spent only a few years on the bench performing valuable but still rudimentary level repair. Few are experienced across the board when it comes to repair schools and apprenticeships. As for myself, I attended repair school and apprenticed as well as worked with and trained Tech school students from all of the presently existing schools in the US. In addition I worked with and oversaw apprentices in my own commercial repair shop. My experiences tell me that there is a lot that has to be taken into account in order to get the best idea of what would be best for you.
First, Is repairing and rebuilding instruments what you are strongly interested in or are you just looking for a job as a fall back because what you originally had in mind for a vacation fell through? do you have any real mechanical aptitude? How about common sense? Are you a self starter? Are you truly interested in learning the skills the trade requires? Do you have any snap or are you a slow-poke? Are you ready and willing to work your butt off and put in long hours to learn the needed skills and are you a team player? Are you reliable and honest? Do you have any applicable skills?
So you know, If you want to be a Tech, it takes years to learn enough to be able perform the jobs that bring revenue to the business (you know, the stuff the shop pays you with).
My opinion here might be at odds with Elephant but really, all the repair schools will help get you started but that is all they provide (help). Most of it is up to you. At the Tech schools instruction varies. For the most part, its nothing more then an opportunity where you get to be in a room full of tools and broken instruments where you get hands on experience to make mistakes. Its not as bad as I make it sound. I am not sure what TE is talking about as to what additional is to be learned at Renton. I have seen all sorts of skill levels come out of there program (decent basic skills that need a little polishing to completely lost). Western Iowa is an okay full two years program but, well... its in Iowa. RedWing and Renton are less then one year and (in my opinion) send most graduates into the working world a bit light in the basic repair skills needed to fairly hit the ground running. But I have known a few that with a good deal of one on one were able to get up to speed on basic woodwinds and simple brass repair. WI is a tad better as was Renton when it was two years (not surprising). I personally think that if you have the proper mindset for this line of work, any of these schools will be adequate but the student needs to be willing to seek as much outside assistance, guidance and technical support as they can and that takes effort and a little luck.
As for apprenticeships; All those questions previously presented are just a start compared to what you will be hit with if you are looking to find an entry position in an experienced Master Technicians shop. Look at it this way, You are looking to get a paying job where you expect to be taught skills worth tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars (each). In addition, the other advanced Technicians in the shop who take the time to help you through advice, demonstration and oversight will expect you to assist them in ways that assist the shop as a whole, such as cleaning, maintenance and errands as a form of repayment because they do not get paid for your education. The shop will spend tens of thousands of dollars over a couple of years paying your wages and for the effort expended in oversight of your training and corrections of your screw-ups. If all goes as hoped, in a couple of years you will start to provide positive revenue that is expected to allow the shop to recover what was spent on your training and eventually make some profit by the time you have become a solid member of the business. You will need to focus on the craft and when you get that down (as TE said) you can take business classes but personally I think common business is more easy to learn on the actual job and is more profitable then sitting in a class room.
Finally, It must be understood that the risk of taking in apprentices now days is all firmly that of the shops Owner and the Tech that oversees there education. If the apprentice is only able to hack it out for a couple of years and quit, then all that was gained is unneeded expense for the shop that was willing to take someone in and give them an opportunity. The owner and staff do not recover the time and money invested and from my own experience all I can really tell you is that it sucks, it angers you and makes you bitter for giving someone a rare opportunity only to have them take what you gave them to another shop or to drop it all together. This is a serious business matter that involves a lot of bucks and years to realize. There are few shops to get properly trained that are willing to let just anyone in even if they have a certificate of completion in hand.
So, make sure you understand the wheres and whys, check out all the schools and find the one that suits you best. Jobs that pay adequate wages for entry level may not be as common as some may say or think (depends on many factors) but if you have skills to offer and can provide more help then headache, an apprenticeship after schooling might just be possible.
Remember, school is only the very beginning. The hard part starts afterward and should be approached with determination, respect and a healthy understanding of what you are asking others to do for you.
Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
www.oberloh.com
There are a hand full of respected Repair Folks on this list that are very experienced in many ways while there are others who have spent only a few years on the bench performing valuable but still rudimentary level repair. Few are experienced across the board when it comes to repair schools and apprenticeships. As for myself, I attended repair school and apprenticed as well as worked with and trained Tech school students from all of the presently existing schools in the US. In addition I worked with and oversaw apprentices in my own commercial repair shop. My experiences tell me that there is a lot that has to be taken into account in order to get the best idea of what would be best for you.
First, Is repairing and rebuilding instruments what you are strongly interested in or are you just looking for a job as a fall back because what you originally had in mind for a vacation fell through? do you have any real mechanical aptitude? How about common sense? Are you a self starter? Are you truly interested in learning the skills the trade requires? Do you have any snap or are you a slow-poke? Are you ready and willing to work your butt off and put in long hours to learn the needed skills and are you a team player? Are you reliable and honest? Do you have any applicable skills?
So you know, If you want to be a Tech, it takes years to learn enough to be able perform the jobs that bring revenue to the business (you know, the stuff the shop pays you with).
My opinion here might be at odds with Elephant but really, all the repair schools will help get you started but that is all they provide (help). Most of it is up to you. At the Tech schools instruction varies. For the most part, its nothing more then an opportunity where you get to be in a room full of tools and broken instruments where you get hands on experience to make mistakes. Its not as bad as I make it sound. I am not sure what TE is talking about as to what additional is to be learned at Renton. I have seen all sorts of skill levels come out of there program (decent basic skills that need a little polishing to completely lost). Western Iowa is an okay full two years program but, well... its in Iowa. RedWing and Renton are less then one year and (in my opinion) send most graduates into the working world a bit light in the basic repair skills needed to fairly hit the ground running. But I have known a few that with a good deal of one on one were able to get up to speed on basic woodwinds and simple brass repair. WI is a tad better as was Renton when it was two years (not surprising). I personally think that if you have the proper mindset for this line of work, any of these schools will be adequate but the student needs to be willing to seek as much outside assistance, guidance and technical support as they can and that takes effort and a little luck.
As for apprenticeships; All those questions previously presented are just a start compared to what you will be hit with if you are looking to find an entry position in an experienced Master Technicians shop. Look at it this way, You are looking to get a paying job where you expect to be taught skills worth tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars (each). In addition, the other advanced Technicians in the shop who take the time to help you through advice, demonstration and oversight will expect you to assist them in ways that assist the shop as a whole, such as cleaning, maintenance and errands as a form of repayment because they do not get paid for your education. The shop will spend tens of thousands of dollars over a couple of years paying your wages and for the effort expended in oversight of your training and corrections of your screw-ups. If all goes as hoped, in a couple of years you will start to provide positive revenue that is expected to allow the shop to recover what was spent on your training and eventually make some profit by the time you have become a solid member of the business. You will need to focus on the craft and when you get that down (as TE said) you can take business classes but personally I think common business is more easy to learn on the actual job and is more profitable then sitting in a class room.
Finally, It must be understood that the risk of taking in apprentices now days is all firmly that of the shops Owner and the Tech that oversees there education. If the apprentice is only able to hack it out for a couple of years and quit, then all that was gained is unneeded expense for the shop that was willing to take someone in and give them an opportunity. The owner and staff do not recover the time and money invested and from my own experience all I can really tell you is that it sucks, it angers you and makes you bitter for giving someone a rare opportunity only to have them take what you gave them to another shop or to drop it all together. This is a serious business matter that involves a lot of bucks and years to realize. There are few shops to get properly trained that are willing to let just anyone in even if they have a certificate of completion in hand.
So, make sure you understand the wheres and whys, check out all the schools and find the one that suits you best. Jobs that pay adequate wages for entry level may not be as common as some may say or think (depends on many factors) but if you have skills to offer and can provide more help then headache, an apprenticeship after schooling might just be possible.
Remember, school is only the very beginning. The hard part starts afterward and should be approached with determination, respect and a healthy understanding of what you are asking others to do for you.
Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
www.oberloh.com
-
tubaguy9
- 4 valves
- Posts: 943
- Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:07 pm
- Location: I pitty da foo!
- Contact: