Question about Nylon-Rimmed Mouthpieces

brianggilbert · Post by **brianggilbert** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:04 pm

I just received a DVD of the Canadian Brass (Live Three Nights) and I noticed that both Chuck D and Gene W both are using what appear to be nylon-rimmed mouthpieces in the 1985 Atlanta segment.

About the same time - when I was in school, one of our performance majors was using a similar mouthpiece in order to "darken" his sound (his horn was a 3/4 silver Yamaha CC, not sure which model). His sound was awesome with and without the nylon rim - I had trouble telling the difference.

It occurred to me that I haven't really seen one of these pieces in a while. Was this fashionable at the time and then fell out of vogue?

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:40 pm

Like everything else, they come and go. Nylon, Delrin, Lexan etc. have all been used to make rims. They tend to be soft, and from my experience soften the articulation a bit too much, or in the case of a full cup, can induce a "whang" (DEG) to the tone or make it really project at the expense of breadth of tone.

One original reason for using such rims is allergy/hypersensitivity to brass or silver. But now with gold plating and solid stanless and titanium available more readily, which also have better tone and intonation, the rims are not as widely used anymore.

kingrob76 · Post by **kingrob76** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:21 am

I have a bunch of Lexan rims for my Doug Elliott mouthpieces. I've never been able to discern any difference in the sound but I will say the feel is less "slippery" than silver (which is less slippery than gold). From a rim perspective, it's all about feel I think. It's when you start making the entire cup or mouthpiece out of Nylon / Lexan / Polycarbonate where you can really notice a difference.

GC · Post by GC » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:50 am

A few people have used porcelain rims, too.

Highams · Post by **Highams** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:01 am

I have used the DE lexan rim for many years now, there's no difference in sound at all between that and the metal version, or articulation, for me anyway.

There is (obviously) a difference in feel, plenty of grip, which I like and it (for Me) secures the high notes without a lot of pressure.

It also 'feels' smaller than it's metal partner, which Doug states in his catalogue.

CB

J.c. Sherman · Post by **J.c. Sherman** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:29 am

I'm a huge fan of plastic. But there is a downside; the reduced weight of the mouthpiece seams to kill overtones and lessen the available power to the sound.

I tried Doug Elliots stuff; If he only made a heavier cup, I'd own only these with the lexan rim. But that was a while ago...

I used a Kelly 18 exclusively on my Conn 52J; the weight problem was solved with a tone intensifier ring I made. It was a big sucker, so the overall weight was the same as a Bach 18.

I know a former top symphony player used an older DEG a lot; but it is a different cup than available now, which is basically a 25 in size. His is close to a 12. I found one of these, and it's nice for outdoor playing on my Eb Imperial. Really Comfortable.

I use an Older DEG trombone mouthpiece on my ophicleide, and a Kelly 6.5 AL on my Bach medium bore bone.

I keep a Brasswind nylon mouthpiece (basically a helleburg copy - talk about cheep!) in my Pig gig bag for the winter warmups, until my mouthpiece warms in my pocket.

Basically, they're great - but get a tone ring, and you'll have no problems and a lot of comfort! And I pray daily Doug Elliot comes out with a heave cup model...

J.c.S. (who admittedly plays still mostly metal mouthpieces...)

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:14 pm

Yes, like all mouthpiece trends, there was more fashion than substance.

Plastic is a good insulator and does not suck heat out of your face as efficiently as metal. That's why I use a Kellyberg for outdoor playing in cold weather. They are also basically indestructible.

And it was already mentioned that some folks have specific metal allergies. This was not the case with Daellenbach or Watts, who were using a metal mouthpiece every time I saw them play.

I submit that the sound differences are more feel than what one might hear out front, and whatever difference they make out front will not be noticed let alone perceived as either positive or negative by any member of the audience. This is especially true for mouthpieces with only a plastic rim.

And if you want a Doug Elliott in a heavy model, solder a big brass ring on the outside of the cup. But do it quick--I perceive that the "heavy mouthpiece" fad is already on the decline, and before too much longer, people will be all hot on the notion of machining off all the excess material from their Doug Elliott mouthpieces.

Rick "noting that the objectives are just as likely to change as the opinion of the effects" Denney

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:13 pm

Or, if you want more mass that is removable, golfer's lead tape does just fine. I have a ring around the throat of my Kelly 18, and it helped with dynamic extremes.

Caveat: it's not a cure-all. Seeing the success with the throat treatment, I put a small ring around the mouthpiece under the rim. It made things worse, inducing so much inertia that I lost responsiveness and had to take it off.

kingrob76 · Post by **kingrob76** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:44 pm

J.c. Sherman wrote:I tried Doug Elliots stuff; If he only made a heavier cup, I'd own only these with the lexan rim. But that was a while ago...

...

And I pray daily Doug Elliot comes out with a heavy cup model...

Doug used to make an XL series which was a heavier cup. I also know he used to make a cup with the designation "Heavy" (or at least tested it). Doug is kind of limbo these days because of a house fire (which was almost two years ago) and subsequent rebuilding, so I don't think he is making anything right now, but when he gets back to it I'd bet he could whip up a XL cup if you ask. That being said, because of the screw-rim design he uses, most of the weight would be around the bottom of the cup since the outside diameter is pretty much fixed (at least at the top).

Doug is a great guy and will accommodate any request he is able to meet, so I would encourage contacting him if you want something specific.

J.c. Sherman · Post by **J.c. Sherman** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:45 pm

I'm not really proposing a heavy mouthpiece; for Doug's, just enough cup mass to make up for the light rim. Same with the tone ring for Kelly mouthpieces.

As for sound, it's a combination of what I hear, balance and sound, and asking my wife and other pros what they here. Universally, they hear a stricking difference when I ad or remove mass.

The JetTone Uber-Helleburg, heavier than my car, is a bit rediculous. But my Classical Bass Bone has a huge mass on the mouthpiece, and my comercial ax has a light 1.25H Benge. Feel has a lot to do with it, but what the sound is and what it DOES at varying volumes.

I hope Doug comes back into mouthpiece making - The world misses him!

J.c.S.