Question for the resident repair gurus

[JHardisk]

Greetings everyone:

This question is more geared towards our resident tuba repair/building specialists.

A mentor of mine has recommended that I have the leadpipes on both of my tubas moved to fit my body. He had this done, and let's just say it's helped him tremendously. He had Kevin Powers do the work, and it's fantastic.

Now...for my question. If I am to have this done, should I have the existing leadpipe bent, or should I purchase a new one for both horns and have that one bent to fit? Ideally, the leadpipe will be moved up and at an angle, and likely off the bells of both horns. It is possible that I may need my F tuba leadpipe to be removeable, or I will have to alter my flight case.

If it is worth noting, my horns are an older Rudy Meinl 5/4 CC and a circa 1998 Meinl Weston 45S F tuba. Also, where in the heck would I get new leadpipes if I need new ones?

Also, what general ballpark would I expect to pay for a project like this? I'm trying to budget for this, and convince my wife of its importance.

I appreciate your responses... this project is a little scary for me and I would appreciate your professional input!

[jeopardymaster]

John, as you've probably already seen from my other posts, my definition of "optimum" leans pretty heavily toward "cheap." All the same, have you tried using a playing stand? A stand might enhance the ergonomics enough to suit you at a much lower cost than surgery. Dunno why it took so long to crack the code, but it's done wonders for me. Makes a heavy horn lighter, frees up the lap, de-stresses the hands and wrists, helps cut down on dings, and enables me to place it wherever I need it to be - regardless of what kind of chair I plop into. Most important, it doesn't put the horns under the knife. Just a thought.

[JHardisk]

Dave,

I utilize a stand and have been for about 6 years now with my big horn. I actually use it in combination with a wedge shaped cello cushion. This was a great fix (also cheap) for a while. I need my horns to hit my face at an upwards angle, and need the leadpipe to be a bit higher than they are now. To achieve the angle I need using the stand, I have to adjust my body in a way that inhibits my breathing a bit (basically, I lean forward...similar to the way Dan Perantoni used to play with his neck out and hunched). Granted, it's a small percentage of my lung capacity that I am losing, but I'm finding that small percentage to be pretty significant in comparison to playing with good posture. Also, Leaning and hunching has given me some issues with tension and neck pain.

Hence, the decision to operate. I'm not too concerned with the money, and in no way concerned with the cosmetics of my horns. I need instruments that are fit to me, not the other way around.

I do appreciate your suggestion to save me some worry and cash though!

[Rick Denney]

I need my horns to hit my face at an upwards angle, and need the leadpipe to be a bit higher than they are now.

That might require only one bend, if they don't need to be raised far. An upward bend an inch or so behind the receiver would change the angle and also raise the mouthpiece.

If it's just one bend, I would be tempted to take it to a master and have them do it to the current leadpipe. That way, you know you'll still have the same leadpipe, and leadpipe dimensions to have an important effect. Good techs can reproduce a leadpipe, but they have to make it from scratch unless the tuba is a relatively current off-the-shelf model.

You're right, though. The tilt can't be fixed with a stand, and achieving that tilt usually requires putting the bottom bow where your body is. I have some of the same issues, and I might have to have that done if I spent enough hours behind the tuba.

Rick "seeing little out-front value in lifting the leadpipe off the bell stack" Denney

[jeopardymaster]

Ah, it took me a while but I can visualize it now. Sounds like a job for someone with an ergo-engineering background.

[Dan Schultz]

Hi, Dave!

I used to move the leadpipe on almost every horn I intended to keep and play for a while. Whew!... that got to be a lot of work! Now, I use a tuba rest for all of the same reasons as the previous posters mentioned.
The bad thing about moving an existing leadpipe as opposed to just making a new one depends a lot on how the pipe is to be re-bent... it can be nearly impossible to reverse existing bends. Also... you're really gonna find out how good the integrity of the old leadpipe is when it's removed from the horn, anealed, filled with pitch, and bent. If there's a weak spot, you're going to find it pretty quickly. Bending a leadpipe a little more is more practical than trying to straighten it.

[MikeMason]

Bloke,why the tubassist over a stand?

[iiipopes]

My take on the leadpipe/receiver issue is that this has more issues than just simple positioning:

1) On my 186, it was so old, so cheap, and the lead pipe had already been brought back from the depths once, that nothing was lost by repositioning it in all three axes: height, angle to match my slight overbite, and wrap around the bell stack. Making sure the bracket on the receiver was soldered on correctly to secure the receiver to match my personal ergonomics did probably the most for my security of intonation than anything.

2) If it's a new horn, or otherwise cost a hefty sum, I'd try it first with the various appliances to see if moving it can be avoided due to the inevitable depreciation this will do to the horn.

3) I'd also be wary of moving it if I was a person who bought and sold tubas frequently.

4) OTOH, if I made my living with a tuba, then I'd immediately have it moved exactly as necessary, as the postive aspects of facilitating the job or gig greatly outweigh everything else.

5) Play a souzy: with 2 bits, you have built in fine tuning adjustment to all aspects of positioning.

[Rick Denney]

Judging from the picture, it seems to me this would be difficult to position for a tuba like my Holton. I park the stand for it right at the corner of the chair, not in the middle. I know you don't like the way the leadpipe doesn't wrap fully around the bell on many big tubas, but I find I can get the bottom bow tucked in closer without having to spread my legs so wide when it is coming in at an angle. Some Wenger chairs include tuba supports, and I once offended a band director whose room we were using by requesting a regular chair. He had gone to some trouble to obtain the chairs with the tuba supports. But when I showed him where the bottom bow actually was with respect to that centered cradle, he understood.

I sit forward in chairs as a matter of course. Even so, the cradle on my stand will overlap the front edge of the chair by just as much as a Tubassist, based on the pictures above. For both, the limitation in how close to the back of the chair they can be positioned is the vertical bar supporting them, assuming they are not level with the chair.

Which leads me to: Everyone and every tuba has different ergonomic requirements, and no one stand is a perfect match for all of them.

Rick "thinking tubas are poorly provided with the sort of support apparatus common to other large instruments" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

John...

Thanks for the call today. It was a pleasure to talk to you. About the tuba rest idea... I took my St. Pete and tuba rest to a brass band gig tonight. We were furnished with some of those nasty plastic chairs that tend to pitch you back in the seat. It was a struggle to stay on the front of the chair close to the horn on the tuba rest. An hour of playing and I was flat worn out! I don't think even a custom pipe on the horn would have saved me from the agony of having to 'perch' on the chair. The 'tubassist' wouldn't have been any help, either. As much as I dislike having to carry my own chair (or a drum throne as some tubiasts do).... I don't think there is a 'final answer' for this problem. I'm going shopping for a drum throne soon. If I have to carry more 'stuff' to play comfortably... that's just the way it will be!

[tubatooter1940]

I own two tuba stands - a light one for inside gigs and a Tubatamer for outside in the wind.
It is a lot of trouble to lug one of these and a big comfy drum throne to sit on but I know I can work comfortably and play four or more hours without being frustrated by my setup.

[eupher61]

re: pulling the leadpipe away from the bell
That used to be a Don Butterfield thing. I was really skeptical of it, until I realized that part of his reasoning was absolutely on: My left eye is about 30% weaker than my right. Having the receiver out, as Don's students often did, would have made a lot of difference over the years, quite possibly. But, I'm scared enough of potential damage to the receiver/leadpipe that I won't have it done.

[scottw]

John...

Thanks for the call today. It was a pleasure to talk to you. About the tuba rest idea... I took my St. Pete and tuba rest to a brass band gig tonight. We were furnished with some of those nasty plastic chairs that tend to pitch you back in the seat. It was a struggle to stay on the front of the chair close to the horn on the tuba rest. An hour of playing and I was flat worn out! I don't think even a custom pipe on the horn would have saved me from the agony of having to 'perch' on the chair. The 'tubassist' wouldn't have been any help, either. As much as I dislike having to carry my own chair (or a drum throne as some tubiasts do).... I don't think there is a 'final answer' for this problem. I'm going shopping for a drum throne soon. If I have to carry more 'stuff' to play comfortably... that's just the way it will be!

Dan, I solve the problem of those lousy chairs--and I create comfort--and I help protect my bell when in the gig bag--by carrying a round, medium density foam cushion the same size as my bell in the end of the bag, then putting the tuba against it inside the case. When I unpack the horn, the cushion goes on my chair-du-jour; I can push it forward, backward, wherever needed to make me comfortable and mitigate the effect those lousy chairs have on my playing--and my body!

[Rick Denney]

I may not have expressed it clearly (in my *words*, rather than in the linked pictures) but the supporting cup for the tuba's bottom bow freely swivels to any angle 100% of the time. In other words, the player locks in the center point of the cup, adjusts the height, and it is then capable (on the fly) of a 360 swivel.

My words must also have been inadequate, because that does not address my issue at all.

When I hold a big tuba with a Yorkish leadpipe like the Holton, the bottom bow of the tuba runs along my left leg. The bottom bow is wide on these tubas, and the center of it ends up being about mid thigh. In any normal chair, that puts it at the front left corner of the seat. The Tubassist (and the Wenger tuba chairs) put the cradle in the middle, between the two corners. The angle is not the issue--the lateral placement is the issue. I don't see how the Tubassist can translate the cradle to the left far enough to get it to the corner where it would need to be to support a BAT.

For tubas that have the leadpipe wrapping fully around the bell, the instrument will be tilted such that the resting point would be more in the center. But I find that my Holton, were it positioned that way, would require two things: A long reach of my right arm to get to the valves, and a wider spread of my legs if the bottom is tucked in tight enough so that the mouthpiece doesn't angle up.

Have you tried this with your Holton BB-345? If so, I'd like to see pictures of how you do it. There may be some mechanical feature I'm missing.

Rick "thinking it would work perfectly with the Miraphone and the York Master, but not the Holton" Denney

[Rick Denney]

re: pulling the leadpipe away from the bell
That used to be a Don Butterfield thing. I was really skeptical of it, until I realized that part of his reasoning was absolutely on: My left eye is about 30% weaker than my right. Having the receiver out, as Don's students often did, would have made a lot of difference over the years, quite possibly. But, I'm scared enough of potential damage to the receiver/leadpipe that I won't have it done.

My left eye is also quite weak. But it was that way before I started playing tuba. It's one reason I have trouble tolerating right-facing bells.

Rick "chicken or egg?" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I'll test it with my 345 and report back, if you're interested.

Sure. I'm curious, even if just in an academic way--I'm quite satisfied with my BBC stand.

Rick "often asked for recommendations" Denney

[pwhitaker]

I've been using a single souzy tuning bit for over 30 years on a fairly diverse group of upright tubas. Along with a tuba stand this has been an easy and practical solution to my overbite embouchure.