5th valve

[sailn2ba]

1. What will a 5th valve on a BBb tuba actually do for me?
2. What set of partials does it access? . . Do the "standard" horns; VMI 3302, Mir 1291 & 186 5VB, Cerveny 686 5MPR & Piggy, MW 25E, all key the same set of notes?

I presently have a 4V horn, and it has good intonation and nice low range (I'm replacing it for other reasons), but when I go below the EEEb, it goes uncontrollably sharp. Is a 5th valve likely to help with that?

[djwesp]

I say this with some honesty, some senility, and some humor.



Getting a BBb tuba with a fifth valve is like attaching a Bose radio to your weedeater. It is cool. It is a great gimmick. It is rarely used. It isn't conventional in application for most things you NEED. It is added expense. It is added weight. It is more things that can go wrong.


Wes "who would spend the money on a CC, or spend the money on books/instruction to get better" Pendergrass

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I presently have a 4V horn, and it has good intonation and nice low range (I'm replacing it for other reasons), but when I go below the EEEb, it goes uncontrollably sharp. Is a 5th valve likely to help with that?

Certainly a 5th valve will help you with the few chromatic notes above the pedal...that and a few minor intonation "fixes" (which you claim you don't need) are all it does do. Some will claim it gives you some options for alternate fingerings (in the higher registers, I mean)...I think it's foolhardy to use the 5th valve for that reason and better to develop enough dexterity that you won't need to do that.

I think the real question is...how often do you suspect you'll need the notes below that Eb, really? That should help you with your dilemna. The low D should be pretty well in tune 2-3-4, anyhow...you may just need to relax a bit to help lower the pitch down there. Try pulling your corners way down for those really low notes.

I'd love to see "a lot" of examples of that low Db in orchestral literature, James...and it's not a "pedal note" (haven't we had this discussion on here before???). I'll present you with a steak dinner if you can quote more than ten (which, to me, still doesn't constitute "a lot"...should be easy for you).

Todd S. "not convinced" Malicoate

[djwesp]

Another observation would be...


Don't stick with fingering chart fingerings! Get a tuner or get a drone cd (these cds are infinitely valuable!!!!!!) and figure out the fingerings on your own.

[The Jackson]

I don't think there will be a whole lot of situations where you will have to articulate in the low register enough to warrant a 5th valve. I would say that, for most situations in the register, pulling slides and alternate fingerings would be just fine. Yes, it is cool, but not cool enough for the extra $$$ and weight.

[tbn.al]

The 2&4 B natural on my 184 BBb is so, so sharp I cannot get it down enough and I can't reach the 2nd valve slide. I considered a 5th for a while, and have used a pull mechanism for the 2nd, but I was overlooking the obvious. 1&4 and push( it's really sharp). Works great. Where there is a will there is a way. Keep looking, wait on the valve, there must be another, better answer.

[The Jackson]

Band-

Valley des cloches- Debussey-Db
De Meij Tbone concerto- C
Grainger- Sussex Mummers Cmas carrol- Db
Thats 4, and i could look at more parts to be sure (i have 10 if low Ds count)

I'll add on William Bolcom's "Song" to this. That has lots of cash register playing near the end (going down to low C many times).

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Not even close, James, my friend.

In alot of orchestral literature, you do get pedal Dbs (needed 5th valve ona CC tuba without doing a false tone). [emphasis mine]

You can't just start changing the rules after you make a claim. So far, you have one unspecified Schoenberg piece for orchestra.

Maybe you could just admit that you made a sweeping assumption that you can't back up? I (and many other posters on here) apologize for making a mis-statement all the time...it's not that hard.

[Jay Bertolet]

Those who know me know that I am a strong advocate of fifth valve usage. All my horns have them, including my cimbasso, and I have added a fifth valve to four valve horns on two occasions. I'll preface my remarks with the disclaimer that people should choose what works for them, not necessarily try to fit into "public wisdom". If you want to read a lengthy series of comments on this subject, search the archives. This topic has been here before.

I find a fifth valve enormously useful. It has many functions for me. Of course, I use it in the low range for intonation and sound quality purposes. What I mean by the latter is that, by using a fifth valve fingering that will render a given note in tune, I don't have to manipulate the note with my embouchure to bring it in tune. Therefore, I maintain a consistent sound. Especially in the low range, this can be a big issue because the notes are already so flexible and easily "muscled" into place. The fifth valve allows me to easily bypass all that.

On any horn, in a given situation, you might find yourself needing to adjust the intonation of a note. Since all my fifth valves are configured as "flat whole step", it is a simple matter to quickly find alternate fingerings that produce a relatively predictable result. Considering that the fifth incorporates a quarter tone, those fingerings usually fall in between standard fingerings pitchwise and will give me plenty of options for adjusting a given pitch just about anywhere in between two given notes that are a half step apart.

I have also used the fifth valve to produce easier to execute trills. Again, having multiple fingering options for a given pitch allows you to pick and choose what fingerings work best for you without having to move the slide too much or at all. In the case of trills, this is something the main slide can't really do for you.

If you're going to add a fifth valve to a horn, my best advice is to approach the project with the full intention of reversing it if the results are not satisfactory. Depending on where you add the valve and associated tubing, you'll be cutting into a horn and possibly changing how it plays. I advise you to make that process reversible or risk ruining a horn that you currently enjoy. The easiest way to do this is to add the fifth valve into the leadpipe, where it enters the current valve cluster. In addition to the fifth valve parts, all you need is another leadpipe. This assures that you can reverse the process. All the cutting is done in the new leadpipe and reinstalling the old one puts the horn right back to the way it was. I've done this process twice and no reversal was required in either case. But better safe than sorry!

Some will say the fifth valve is a luxury, something that most players can live without. For me, I could absolutely play if all my horns only had four valves. But having five makes it much easier and I'm all for that.

Regards,
Jay Bertolet

[sailn2ba]

Thanks for all the input! Actually, I've never seen anything below DDD on a tuba part (Once, I think.), and as you say, I can get that for a little while with 1234 or 234. The lip and throat matter more than the valves. However, I've occasionally played simple 'cello stuff with a church organ, and it's really neat to double the organ pedal. . . I could use a nice round Db, C, or B for that, and I just don't have enough slide on the horn to get there.

[sailn2ba]

Folks were posting replies while I was crafting mine! Thanks, Jay. . . I like your point about alternate fingerings, as I use my 4th valve for some trills already. Anyway, I'm not thinking about cutting and pasting. My intention would be to purchase a horn built that way. Thanks again.

[tbn.al]

Jay's right...Ya gotta do whatever you can to play in the scale...and any additional useful tools are welcomed.

I have to agree. I lost interest in fixing my 184 when I started playing the VMI 3301 on a regular basis. If I go back to the 184 as my primary horn I will take it to bloke and have him do whatever it takes to get it to where it will "easily" play the scale. I will probably add a 2nd valve kicker or a 5th valve just for intonation purposes. The VMI has really spoiled me as the 184 is now a bunch of extra work I don't want to do.

[J.c. Sherman]

...and it's [Db] not a "pedal note" (haven't we had this discussion on here before???).

Todd S. "not convinced" Malicoate

My Eb and F tubas disagree with you

Besides, when a term is perfectly understood, we can let that fly right?

J.c.S.

[imperialbari]

Jay, it is so wonderful to read a posting from you again. I really hope you do well despite the sad fate of your orchestra. You have hinted about one more income to the family, and famine wasn’t my first association last I saw a photo of you.

Having been around the trombone and the horn plus worked with aftermarket tuning of good recorders before descending into conical low brasses I find our thinking rather similar, even if you of course are the better player.

The trombone has obvious ways of adjusting the tube length of optimal resonance at any pitch. Yet part of good trombone technique often is to choose the less obvious position on a given note with the purpose of better facility in the given context.

My starting horn was a 5 valve single Bb. Unlike with tubas the 5th valve is a ¾ step. Yet the overall math is very similar in style to your 5/4 step 5th valve. The bell hand also can do some fine-tuning, but not too much if a uniform sound should be kept.

I never understood players considering themselves good among amateurs, who after several decades with brasses still have a fingering table attached to their music stand. You kind of represent the opposite approach by rethinking the options of any non-standard situation from the ground. That takes preparation, but then I remember you asking for the score and/or part of a piece unknown to you, which had been programmed almost a year into the then future.

You don’t like 3+1P compensator, which I better should do, as I have 4 of them in Bb, F, Eb, and BBb. You come out of one tradition. I come out of a different one. I am very tolerant on such matters.

Yet I tend to differ with you on the placement of an eventual aftermarket 5th valve. The leadpipe is possibly the most important part regarding playability of any brass instrument. If I have a good one, I wouldn’t touch it. Putting a rotor in that critical area is asking for trouble according to my concept of brasses. Bob Rusk has done fine conversions with the 5th valve in the leadpipe and his design of the Canadian Brass/Getzen CC has a strong following. However the high-end European makers tend to place the 5th valve after the main tuning slide, which makes sense if it is mainly used in the low range.

I agree with your preference of making changes reversible. As I understand the design of the current Conn line of CC tubas they have their 5th valve at the upper end of the female branch after the main tuning slide. And that branch is mounted with a screw connection for easy removal for maintenance purposes. One poster (was it AS?) made an alternative female branch without the valve to get an easy change between a 4 valve and a 5 valve CC tuba. To me that looks like a very happy solution providing reversibility and convertibility.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[iiipopes]

Unlike the C version, the 4th slide on the Bb version is inaccessable, isn't it?

It's not that the 186 BBb 4th valve slide is "inaccessible," so much as it is nestled interior to the bugle behind the valves, so it has a very short throw, enough to get 4 in tune by itself, and possibly 2-4 if you don't have a 2nd valve kicker and don't mind setting 4 a tad long and lipping up for 4 and down for 2-4, which is what I do; but not enough for, say, 1-4 low Eb. You still have to either 1) pull 1 significantly, or 2) shove, play low Eb 124 and lip up (arching the back of the tongue to increase air velocity helps, although it can make the tone go a tad grainy), or 3) play a priviledged tone. Depending on the size of the venue or the piece at hand, one or more of these options may or may not work for the context, or none at all.

For low Eb, I usually pull 1. That, combined with setting 4 just a tad long and being careful of your intonation, usually works for most situations. If you're playing a BBb in orchestra, then to have the 5th valve for low Eb, analogous to having it for F on a CC tuba, is a practical addition. But I've never needed it for 99%+ of the band literature I've played, as 99%+ of the band literature doesn't have low Eb.

[Rick Denney]

However the high-end European makers tend to place the 5th valve after the main tuning slide, which makes sense if it is mainly used in the low range.

As you know, Klaus, the traditional spot for a fifth valve on traditional rotary tubas is just above the first valve. Granted, the valves are further along in the bugle on a rotary tuba, but the notion of putting the fifth downstream of the tuning slide (or the fourth valve) seems related to front-action piston tubas modeled on a certain famous York that was not widely copied until the last several decades.

On the general question, it depends on the player's skill and anticipating playing situations. I only rarely miss having a fifth valve on my Bb tubas, and when asked to play below E on the Holton I prefer to use false tones as they are easier to play (meaning: they are within my reach). I am asked to play a low Eb once in a while, but only very rarely below that. On F tuba, I use the fifth valve routinely, and sometimes wish for a sixth, but then I'm asked to play in the lowest register of that instrument a lot more often.

I'm sure if I had a fifth valve on my Bb tubas, I would use it from time to time, and I can think of a few trills that would surely be easier with it. But mostly that's practice-room stuff, not the stuff I'm asked to play in public.

But then there's the story of Fletcher removing the fifth valve on his Holton because he thought it affected the sound negatively. All tubas are a compromise, and it's a matter of finding the best mix of tools to negotiate them.

Rick "also glad to see a post from Jay" Denney

[Todd S. Malicoate]

...and it's [Db] not a "pedal note" (haven't we had this discussion on here before???).

Todd S. "not convinced" Malicoate

My Eb and F tubas disagree with you

Besides, when a term is perfectly understood, we can let that fly right?

J.c.S.

Agreed, and I usually specifically refer to the key of tuba I mean...but in this case, the topic was about Bb tubas and James made an example of a specific note which required 5th valve on a C tuba. Sorry if I was unclear, I thought it was understood I was talking about those tubas.

There does seem to be a lot of disagreement about what is a pedal and what isn't...unless it a specific thread about that, in the future I'll simply stay away from the issue.

Todd S. "whose opinion about pedal nomenclature obviously isn't universal" Malicoate

[sailn2ba]

Wow! I'm impressed by the extent of this thread. I've learned a lot from it. I would like to weigh in on this "pedal" thing because (previously) I wasn't confused.
Wikipedia (and it agrees with me!): Pedal tones are special notes in the harmonic series of cylindrical-bore brass instruments. A pedal tone has the pitch of its harmonic series' fundamental tone. Its name comes from the foot pedals of a pipe-organ. Cylindrical brasses do not naturally vibrate at this frequency. . . the rest of that definition is also pretty interesting!
I regard pedal tones as the tube fundamental. . . BBBb for the open BBb tuba, and down from there for valves. I'm not a trombonist, but I can easily blow pedal tones on a trombone and y'all know what and where those are. Trumpeters can play 'em (can flugelers?) and french hornists use them as part of their operable range.
ANYHOW, I do not consider DDD to BBB pedal tones. If you can hit 'em right, they play in sequence with the same sound. I honestly think I've been able to get an open BBBb (the pedal tone) sometimes, but something else in the room has to kind of reinforce it.

[Rick Denney]

IS it a 187?

The 187 is the Bb equivalent of the 188 C. Not really the same, but intended to be a fatter version of the 186 in both cases.



Rick "does it look like this?" Denney

[Rick Denney]

The bell stack actually looks a bit fatter (?), and the dogleg is curved. It can't be a 190, can it?

Naw. It's not old enough or big enough. The 190 was a true Kaiser--much bigger in all dimensions. It was more like a Rudy Meinl 5/4 (or even bigger, but not as big as an RM 6/4), while the 187/188 is more the size of an RM 4/4 (and bigger than a 186). And the 189 had angled valves. If it's bigger than a 186 and it's in Bb, then it seems to me that it pretty much has to be a 187.

Rick "whose Miraphone dates from the 70's and who doesn't know much about what came after" Denney