How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

djwesp · Post by **djwesp** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:40 pm

As i play with a downstream embouchure:

1. To bend higher, I direct my air stream downwards, closer and closer to the lip of the mouthpiece.

2. To bend lower, I direct my air stream upwards, towards the shank of the mouthpiece.

Mentally, when working on this specifically (as in with the lip bending exercises and such) I focus on playing with more upper lip when trying to player higher (while retracting the jaw back), and vice versa when bending down. As most people probably do, I have a much harder time bending the notes up, and some tightening of the corners with some oomph is about all i can do to really muscle them around.

Doug Elliot has participated in some absolutely crazy "knock down drag outs" on similar subjects as this in the trombone forum. Maybe he'll stop by and give his 2 cents?

ginnboonmiller · Post by **ginnboonmiller** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:52 pm

It seems to me that the mechanics for moving the pitch slightly are the same as for moving the pitch over a larger interval, just less extreme. No tuba slots pitches with laser beam precision - they all still act to amplify the buzzing we're creating and not so much to tell us what pitch we get to buzz our lips at. Even with the best slotting gear on the planet, there's some play there.

I have personally had better success AS A PLAYER not to sweat this at all - I don't really think that I lip pitches into tune, rather I just play the right pitch and sometimes the tuba helps me and sometimes it fights me a little bit. As a CURIOUS GUY, however, I wonder if "lipping into tune" is any different a physical process then "playing a different note." I'm personally doubtful that a difference really exists but I look forward to hearing more responses in this thread.

sailn2ba · Post by **sailn2ba** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:00 pm

After I'm warmed up, and provided I can "hear" the pitch (sense what it's going to sound like), I don't have much trouble. I DO notice that, if I add a little vibrato, I do it with jaw motion. Also, if I misfinger a note I notice that the sounded pitch is pretty far away from the fingered one. Conclusion is that buzzing the right pitch is quite important.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:06 pm

Personally, I also make the back and foreward jaw adjustments that bloke makes, but I also raise and lower my jaw at the same time which affects the size of air stream.

Yes, it makes quite a difference in both being able to play in tune, and adjust to different tuning-types.

A bass trombonist that I used to play with had a funny bit where he would declare, "My slide is broken!" and move the slide fully out and in, all while playing the same pitch.

One can play any pitch on any length brass with honest-to-god "world-class" chops, the difference is resonance, not pitch. Which is why one pulls slides anyway when you get good. Not for pitch, but for resonance.

Matt G · Post by **Matt G** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:12 pm

bloke wrote: To "lip" pitches HIGHER: I move my lower lip back into my mouth.

Common practice. Pushes airstream down and pinches it a bit. Tone becomes "narrow'.

To "lip" pitches LOWER: I open up the space between my lips, and compensate with faster air speed.

Also common. "Flab" out the embouchure. Usually creates a "hollow" timbre.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:33 pm

windshieldbug wrote:....which affects the size of air stream.

Gil Corella suggested to me in a lesson to alter the size of the aperture and compensate with air speed, which is just a different way of saying what both you and Joe are saying.

Rick "who does his best" Denney

pwhitaker · Post by **pwhitaker** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:59 pm

Telekinesis.

Tuba Guy · Post by **Tuba Guy** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:09 pm

If my pitch is too low, I raise my eyebrows...i'm never too high, but if I am, I pull my 1st valve slide (or just with the mouth, I would drop the jaw...i don't really do this though..consciously, at least)

Tuba Guy · Post by **Tuba Guy** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:11 pm

The ends justify the means (aka it works)

Art Hovey · Post by **Art Hovey** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:44 pm

It's easy to shift pitch up or down while buzzing on a mouthpiece.
It's not difficult to do the same thing (whatever that is) while playing the tuba.

Here's where I learned it:
http://www.box.net/shared/sqoited2x0

What I have always wanted to know is how they do it on a harmonica.
I asked a very intelligent blues-harp artist about that once, and he had no idea except "mind over matter".

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:04 am

I went and tried it, and almost couldn't tell what I was doing ( I can feel myself "changing the pitch", but the physical movement is slight), but I'm pretty sure I was going the opposite way from everyone else (again): lower lip moves a little out to raise pitch, in to lower it.

I don't think that's a paradox - I was standing on my head.

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:19 am

Basically I agree with bloke. Yet I think he is less than precise in his wording, when he claims to compensate with an increased speed of air when lowering the pitch. In most, if not all, acoustic contexts an increased speed of air will lead to a higher frequency of the sound. Rather bloke, like many of us, moves a larger volume of air via a wider, but slower airstream. At least that is what we with the-jaw-dropping-with-the-pitch do.

Klaus

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:44 am

Art Hovey wrote:Here's where I learned it:
http://www.box.net/shared/sqoited2x0

Say, Art, why don't you summarize it. My company's filter thinks it's a dorn site.

Rick "whose intonation is limited by well-filtered ears" Denney

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:42 am

I really cannot describe what I do, because it is automatic and not a concious thing.

Starting playing with British top valve tubas, there was never any chance to slide pull, so I have always lipped into tune. I have even on occasions done this with the wrong fingering (e.g. missed a sharp, or flat in key signature) if I can hear the pitch of the required note. I remember a master class with Steve Sykes where if I remember right he demonstrated lipping over a couple tones.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:54 am

Rick Denney wrote:
Art Hovey wrote:Here's where I learned it:
http://www.box.net/shared/sqoited2x0
Say, Art, why don't you summarize it. My company's filter thinks it's a dorn site.

Rick "whose intonation is limited by well-filtered ears" Denney

It's an MP3 file of "Tuba Square Dance" that contains lots of sliding and bending...

lgb&dtuba · Post by **lgb&dtuba** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:04 am

Bending a tone on a harmonica is actually not that different than doing so on a tuba. It's mostly a combination (in no particular order) of air speed, breath support, aiming the air stream, changing the oral cavity volume along with tongue placement and shape. Just no buzzing on a harmonica

Seriously, all those things factor into changing your pitch on either instrument and like riding a bicycle it may not be possible to adequately explain it in words.

Bob Mosso · Post by **Bob Mosso** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:56 pm

Originally I would tighten (or loosen) my lips as if I were goning to slur to the next partial, this only bent the pitch slightly before the note would want to jump to that next partial.

Now (to bend flat) I drop my jaw, lower my tongue... try to make my mouth cavity as large as possible when I need to lower the pitch. This also results in more slower air. My tone seems to be better and I can bend the pitch more.

When going sharp I first tighten my lips, then make my mouth cavity smaller if necessary, althouogh tone suffers.

I keep my air straight towards the shank unless I feel I need a little extra help hitting a high note, then I'll direct the air down.

Drbuzzz · Post by **Drbuzzz** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:16 pm

I use my mouth to tell people that I'm in tune and they need to adjust to me!

Bob Mosso · Post by **Bob Mosso** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:43 pm

Sometimes I bend in one direction.... if that didn't fix it....
bend in the other direction... if that didn't fix it...
remove the the horn from my mouth, give a questioning look right and left, shrug my shoulders and come in at the next phrase.

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:27 pm

Bob Mosso wrote:Sometimes I bend in one direction.... if that didn't fix it....
bend in the other direction... if that didn't fix it...
remove the the horn from my mouth, give a questioning look right and left, shrug my shoulders and come in at the next phrase.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30754&p=268736&hili ... on#p268736

TubeNet

How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?

Re: How do you fine-tune pitch on a tuba with your mouth?