Big box stores

[Chuck(G)]

After guiding our quintet's horn player down the steps from my front door with a flashlight in hand, I decided that it was time to put in some sort of outdoor lighting to avoid a future catastrophe.

The "always been here" hardware store that I like to shop in at my end of town didn't really have anything, so I went off to the north end of town to the land of the Big Boxes--Home Depot, Wal-Mart, etc.

My wife and I went into an almost-deserted Home Depot and wandered the aisles in electrical looking for someone to ask. Finally, in appliances, I found someone who told me to look in the garden section. Okay, that's logical--but the instructions were wrong and I had to wander some more before I finally found what I was looking for.

Faced with a bewildering variety of fixtures and options, I looked for some help. Nobody home. I finally sat down (on the floor) with my wife and talked over the situation and picked somethng that should work just fine--I think.

I took my purchase to checkout, where I found a young man who clearly didn't give a rat's patoot if I was there or not. As a matter of fact, if I'd have wanted to, I could have gone through the self-check and completely avoided any human contact at all.

So, I got what I needed (maybe) and the whole experience was about as enjoyable as wandering in the desert and took perhaps three times as long as it should have. (I did get to meet a nice search-and-rescue dog who did service at WTC, however).

Yeah, the prices are lower, but I would have gladly paid twice as much for some help and knowledge that I wasn't throwing my money away.

I'll stick with the local True Value when I can. At least they have real salespeople who know what they're talking about.

Anyone else have similar feelings? .

[Mark]

Anyone else have similar feelings? .

Yes. I absolutely refuse to use those "self checks". Somebody ought to work for the money I'm giving them. On the other hand, the computer at the "self check" would actually thank me for shopping there.

To add insult to injury, our local Home Depot has stopped allowing dogs into the store, so we can no longer take our Goldens shopping with us.

[ThomasDodd]

Yeah, the prices are lower, but I would have gladly paid twice as much for some help and knowledge that I wasn't throwing my money away.

You can return it if it's not what you need

I'll stick with the local True Value when I can. At least they have real salespeople who know what they're talking about.

Anyone else have similar feelings? .

Completely differenty experience than me. The people in both types of stores tend to not hav a clue. So, I'm on my own either way. I'll take the selection and prices of the larger store. Often I'll buy online and not even visit a store, unless I need it now or it too expensive to ship.

Use the resurces you have available. Search the net for information. Ask on news groups and meassage boards like this one (Thanks Sean ) , or dedicated to related areas. Do your homework. You can do a lot more of that now than in the past.

Try buying parts for a car today. The clerks in the stores generlly don't know much about cars. he can punch the info into a computer, tell you the result, and pull parts off the shelf. It taks effort to find somone who actually knows much about how the car works, and can help find the correct part for the problem. From 2 Discount stores, and 3 smaller parts stores, I've found 6 people with a clue, but only 2 are still aound.

[MaryAnn]

Our Home Despot store used to be like that, until a competetor arrived, and then suddenly service went way, way up. Now the clerks darn near pester me in the store.

I suggest you send a copy of what you wrote to your local HD store manager. You might be surprised at the action you get. But I too try very hard to patronize my local hardware store, even if it is no longer the Mom and Pop deal of decades ago but yet another chain, albeit one of smaller stores. I drive the extra mile to a different Ace than the nearby one because the nearby one has the same attitude as your HD store. Not only are they idiots but they are rude idiots.

MA

[Doug@GT]

I'll stick with the local True Value when I can. At least they have real salespeople who know what they're talking about.

Anyone else have similar feelings? .

Our HDs around here are pretty good, with friendly, helpful employees. I guess there are some advantages to living in Georgia after all.

[Joe Baker]

With the advent of the untrained sales clerk, ebay, and internet shopping, the words "Buyer Beware" have never been more timely. It doesn't bother me, because I'm all too happy to spend time researching what I want before I make a decision, and I've generally come away more satisfied for having made a decision that was not overly influenced by the guy who is making the sale; but it most definitely makes it more work to get a quality product.

Fortunately, the internet has come along just in time to provide us with just about all the research we need to figure out what we want, what we need, what it should cost, and how we can put our purchase to the best use.
________________________________
Joe Baker, who keeps his subscription to "Consumer Reports" paid up.

[Matt G]

Ok.

I work at Home Depot. In the electrical department.

I have 6 years experience of working for electrical supply houses and three other people in my department are retired electricians and on is a retired appliance repair guy. Their is also a guy working toward becoming a journeyman electrician. They usually have one of us on at any time to "cover" for those hard questions or some real knowledge. However, our store is wuite rare in that regard. Very few stores can get the knowledge we have, mainly because one of Neutron Jack's (Welch) boys, Bob Nardelli is trying to beat down expenses. Anyone who runs a business knows that the best way to cut back is inventory and salary expense, which HD is trying to do both. I know that as soon as my MBA is over I'll be out those doors like a bat out of hell, but HD hasn't treated me all that bad as an employee. But the stores have to pay for knowledge, something many of them are not willing to do.

I take exception to the few generalizations that have been on this thread, but I realize that they are true. I know that some departments do not have qualified people and many times I know more than they do and can assist customers better.

Lowe's is a much worse experience in my location. Also, our store continues to keep customers even though HD is cannabalizing its own sales to keep them away from Lowe's. That is because our store has over the years had enough of a human knowledge base to get trust from the general public.

I myself try to offer a high degree of service when possible. So do others in my store. Some do not.

One big problem trend in HD is also the fact that they no longer reward good behavior. They have gone back to punish the wrong instead of rewarding the right. That doesn't bother me, but it is a big motivation to many.

As far as auto parts, I always go to NAPA. That is because they are always the ones running parts to the good service centers and dealers. The also have a much more "supply house/wholesaler" culture in which each employee has a fairly good wealth of knowledge.

Chuck, if you want really good service, make an acquantance at a electrical wholesaler. You'll get good pricing, plus you'll be dealing with someone who knows what they are talking about. Heck, if you have any questions on outdoor/landscape lighting, drop me a note.

[Matt G]

Hire a 'lectrician. Get charged $300/hr., still get the wrong stuff, and (unlike a do-it-yourself job) he'll blow a fuse for sure. Plus, he'll pull a permit, so your property taxes will go up.

That is a pretty lousy attitude.

I know a few competent electricians who would charge you nowhere near that amount.

BTW, you don't have to pull a permit on any work like that in most jurisdicitons. Permits are for service upgrades and additions/remodeling or sub-panels.

It sounds like you were dealing with a not-so-great fellow. That is why I don't mind doing a little research about labor companies when possible. I will not do plumbing, but I have a plumber who will come out at any time in an emergency and who does good work at fair prices. I have a guy who will cut down and trim trees at low prices, low enough for me to not even think about owning a chainsaw.

Word-of-mouth is the best source of education of service providers. Try to get at least three positives on anything.

I'm sure many people could easily have the same opinion of repair folk if they went to the wrong place.

[ThomasDodd]

One big problem trend in HD is also the fact that they no longer reward good behavior. They have gone back to punish the wrong instead of rewarding the right. That doesn't bother me, but it is a big motivation to many.

That's a problem with most large companies. period.
Couple that with a low standard for "acceptable" behavior, and the even worse problem of lack of pride in iones job, and you get the basic experience that started this thread. Customers need to expect more. Managemnet need to demand more. Both need to be willing to pay for that.

As far as auto parts, I always go to NAPA. That is because they are always the ones running parts to the good service centers and dealers. The also have a much more "supply house/wholesaler" culture in which each employee has a fairly good wealth of knowledge.

Not the NAPA here. Now one of the other old chains (cannot think of the name, not CarQuest either) here had a guy that was great. Typical of the south, his name is Buba, really. He now works for O'Reily. Best I can figure is better benefits there. Probably more to it though.(O'Reily now as a lot of former AutoZone people too) He's the kind of guy you can ask for a part and he know the part number without the computer or the books.

I don't find that at NAPA or CarQuest. Both have poor stock, and high prices. Not much difference in the quality or warantees there either.

Heck, if you have any questions on outdoor/landscape lighting, drop me a note.

See. My point exactly. Chuck will get better advice from someone here than any of the store people. Once he knows what to purchase, price/quality becomes the issue, and The big stores usually win there due to their size.

[Chuck(G)]

Chuck, if you want really good service, make an acquantance at a electrical wholesaler. You'll get good pricing, plus you'll be dealing with someone who knows what they are talking about. Heck, if you have any questions on outdoor/landscape lighting, drop me a note.

Like, MA, I'm an EE by education, although mine dates back to phasor arithmetic on a slide rule... Regardless, I'd like to think I know what I'm doing.

My problem was being able to ask a salesperson things like "How much light does one of these fixutres put out? " or "What's the radius and angle of coverage? " or "Have you had good experience with these or are they a POS? " Seeing as how these things are low-voltage, installation was straightforward.

You know, once you've installed the things, you can't take them back.

Now my problem is that I've got a switched circuit supposedly connected to a coil of UG cable buried somewhere in the front yard. Or so the blueprints say--and there's UG connected to the switch inside the house. I can't find where it exits the building however, and unless the electricians bored a hole through 18" of reinforced concrete stem wall, I'll bet that coil is hanging around behind a wall, long forgotten.

I figure I'll just hook an RF signal generator to the cable and see if I can find it with an AM radio.

Anyone got a better idea?

[Matt G]

My problem was being able to ask a salesperson things like "How much light does one of these fixutres put out? " or "What's the radius and angle of coverage? " or "Have you had good experience with these or are they a POS? " Seeing as how these things are low-voltage, installation was straightforward.

You know, once you've installed the things, you can't take them back.

A wholesaler's staff can either answer those questions for you or get you that info quickly from the manufacturer.

Yes you can take them back, all you have to do is say they're defective and they'll at least give you store credit.

BTW its UF (Underground Feeder) cable.

You might be able to find it if you can put power to it on the other end and trace it with a studfinder that can detect electrical current.

[Dylan King]

How many electricians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

[Dylan King]

1 electrician, 1 lightbulb, and 1 hundred dollars.

[ThomasDodd]

My problem was being able to ask a salesperson things like

"How much light does one of these fixutres put out? "
or "What's the radius and angle of coverage? "
or "Have you had good experience with these or are they a POS? "

1) the sales guy won't know any of that. You can read the box just as well, no better that most.
2) the first 2 items shold be on the box or in the docs, in the box.

3) no salesman is going to telll you they are selluing junk, even if they know they are. Only outside info will give you that. Like magazine reviews, or individual opinions.

You know, once you've installed the things, you can't take them back.

HA. Not sure what you have, but the people at the returns desk don't have any more of a clue that the rest of the store. They'll take almost anything back if you have a recipt. Just clean it up a little, and put it all back in the box. You'd be amazed.

Anyone got a better idea?

If you have a signal source that souinds great.
Most of us don't though

[Matt G]

1 electrician, 1 lightbulb, and 1 hundred dollars.

While this may be funny in context, let us not forget that musicians are more than guilty of there own problems. I've done plenty quintet gigs that I got $75-100 for 15-30 minutes of music. That is far above the mean, median, and modal wage of most folks that are at the occasion. Many folks would be astounded that the people in the quintet got that much for so "little" work.

But then "we" had to go to "school" and we need "tools" to do this. So does every electrician. All of that overhead is included in the charge plus transportation, etc.

I'm not going to say that some electricians do not always fairly charge for their services, but many do. I love it when everyone bitches about having to pay for a service call fee. I'd like to see how many people would be willing to drive to some strangers house in a car they may pay for or their work subsidizes and the fuel within and associated maintenence. On top of that it takes an hour out of there schedule to just go there. Oh, and you do get advice even if nothing is wrong, from a professional.

Just because electricity may seem easy to some of us, there are many people who do not have the time or skills to work with electricity. There are also many people who are deathly afraid of electricity. Sometimes, there are just some poor old ladies whose husbands have passed and they need someone to help them out.

You know it is funny, there is a much larger demand for skilled electricians, carpenters, plumbers, etc. than there is for musicians.

[Matt G]

My problem was being able to ask a salesperson things like "How much light does one of these fixutres put out? " or "What's the radius and angle of coverage? " or "Have you had good experience with these or are they a POS? " Seeing as how these things are low-voltage, installation was straightforward.

Chuck, you'll find what you need here for information:

http://www.intermatic.com/?action=div&did=1

The site is a bit laborious because of Macromedia Flash movies, but all of the info is there. They have a method for tech support also.

This is the brand you'll more than likely find in any blue box, orange box, hardware store, and distributor.

[Chuck(G)]

1) the sales guy won't know any of that. You can read the box just as well, no better that most.

2) the first 2 items shold be on the box or in the docs, in the box.

3) no salesman is going to telll you they are selluing junk, even if they know they are. Only outside info will give you that. Like magazine reviews, or individual opinions.

The box doesn't say any of what I was interested in. Just had pictures and a statement of what was in the box.

We're not selling used cars here, I expect a salesman to know his merchandise (or is that a quaint notion nowadays?) and be able to suggest a product suited to my needs. Golly, if you watched the TV commercials, you'd think that's what they did...

Why even have a salesperson otherwise?

Since Joe S. runs a retail business, I'm sure he'd have a take on what a good salesperson does. And I'll bet it's not "Trumpets? Over there on the far wall" and walk away...

Matt, you hit the nail on the head. It's an Intermatic unit and the online presentation was useful. In any case, it's all installed and it works just fine. BTW, a low-power RF signal generator wasn't strong enough to show the underground route, so I modified an old switching power supply to serve as a signal source and the cable path showed up very nicely. It wasn't where the blueprint showed, but I found it.

[ThomasDodd]

The box doesn't say any of what I was interested in. Just had pictures and a statement of what was in the box.

Strange. Unless it's white box for contractors. You don't find that much in the retail stores.
I bough a motion sensitive spot last year, so the light output depends on the bule I pick, as does the area illuminated. But the sensor was descrbed on the box and in the docs, along with the power rating.

We're not selling used cars here, I expect a salesman to know his merchandise (or is that a quaint notion nowadays?) and be able to suggest a product suited to my needs. Golly, if you watched the TV commercials, you'd think that's what they did...

Why even have a salesperson otherwise?

Most "salesmen" today are there to direct customers to the general merchandise locations. And many cannot even do that. They have verry little knowledge of any merchandise. Oh, and thell help you get stuff from the top shelf, or get it to the register. If you're lucky they will help get it to the car.

There are exceptions, but the knowledge level is inversely porportional to the number of employees. So in Joes one man shop he knows all the merchandise, inside out. Go to a big chain store with 1000 employees and many will only know where the different instruments are in the store. The couldn't tell you the difference in a Conn or Besson or Yamaha, except the price.

The musical instument business, especially winds is not as bad yet. But Go to a big guitar shop and ask about the differences in the strat look alikes. Try it with 5 different people, after learning the truth. I'd be surprized if 1 was even close.

[Dan Schultz]

1 electrician, 1 lightbulb, and 1 hundred dollars.

While this may be funny in context, let us not forget that musicians are more than guilty of there own problems. I've done plenty quintet gigs that I got $75-100 for 15-30 minutes of music.

Does that cover your preparation time, getting to/from the gig, your $7,000 horn, your tux, or the fact that you could have been doing something else? I usually find that when I play for pay, the dollars really dry up when I consider everything.

[Matt G]

1 electrician, 1 lightbulb, and 1 hundred dollars.

While this may be funny in context, let us not forget that musicians are more than guilty of there own problems. I've done plenty quintet gigs that I got $75-100 for 15-30 minutes of music.

Does that cover your preparation time, getting to/from the gig, your $7,000 horn, your tux, or the fact that you could have been doing something else? I usually find that when I play for pay, the dollars really dry up when I consider everything.

Thanks for making my point.

But then "we" had to go to "school" and we need "tools" to do this. So does every electrician. All of that overhead is included in the charge plus transportation, etc.

Id est, the electrician is not charging you for the cost to do just the job itself, but the cost of the job and all other overhead that got him to your door.

Electricians must be trained to be liscensed. More so than any wind blower. The amount of tools that the average electrician must have to be able to do residential/light commercial work is probably on par with the average musician. Plus, how many musicians are liscensed and bonded? Oh, and we push air through the horn, that is free. To fix stuff requires parts and supplies.

Notice most of the guys popping up here are probably mechanically inclined enough to fix most of their own stuff. Just like if I were to say that you all overcharge for cleaning my horn because it only takes about $5 worth of chemicals for me to do it myself. I wouldn't because I worked in a repair shop, cleaning horns. I know it took my time and patience. I also had to do prep work and their was a special area just to clean horns. I understood what went into it. And I have paid since then to have my horn professionally cleaned and not said one thing about the charge. That is because, I like many others, understood that the marginal utility of having someone else do this for me outweighed me doing it myself. The group of perceived benefits outweighed the service price.

How many people here have made their own cabinets? Real cabinets. Like the ones in your kitchen. Something that you wouldn't be embarassed to show other people?

Probably very few. That is because carpentry is far less dabbled in by the average homeowner. Mostly because the tools are even more expensive to do the job right and the work can't be hidden by a plastic wall plate or a piece of drywall.

Hey here is something interesting. A musician is a laborer like every other specialty labor service. Heck, they even have a union for us!