Sander Tuba

[sailracer90]

Anyone know anything about this horn? all i know is that its a german horn that was donated to LSU and is something like 90 years old. Sounds pretty damn good too. Heres some pics. How much is it worth? I think its pretty awesome. The repair guy wanted to know more about it too. What do you think? here are some pics

[sailracer90]

more pics

[Dan Schultz]

This is really confusing. Are your images 'flipped'?

[sailracer90]

yeah, unfortunately they are... haha, the bell says:

Sander
Wolfstein
Pfalz

[sailracer90]

And no, it is not a left handed tuba. its normal, just like most horns are, haha

[jonesbrass]

If you look, you'll find pictures of August Helleburg playing these tubas. He played with Sousa and was also the first tubaist with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and also played with the New York Phil and the Met. They were considered pretty primo horns at one point in time, but have not been made since before WWII. They were made in Wolfstein, in the Rheinland-Pfalz state of Germany, not far from Kaiserslautern.
I'll bet it's a REALLY nice horn to play.

[jonesbrass]

http://www.tubaexchange.com/historic_co ... mber=01363

Here is a link to a nearly identical tuba in the Tuba Exchange historical collection. I know Jim Self owns one of these, too.

[sailracer90]

Yeah, the thing is a beast, might I add that the people who made these horns mustve been pretty nuts... there is a seam that goes up the entire bell and through all of the larger tubing... it sounds beautiful. Only thing i cant figure out is for some reason the 4th valve is a half step sharp and theres no way to fix that. any suggestions?

[Keith Sanders]

Hey sailracer90,

That would be the same type of tuba that the famous Sam Green played in the Cincinnati Symphony.....I know there are some of his former students that are on here that could shed some more light on this particular instrument. I think it is pretty cool that some people would just donate a really awesome old tuba like this to a university, esp. with such a great studio and Dr. Skillen is a pretty nice guy and all around awesome tuba player, too. Now, if someone would be willing to donate Louisiana College a couple of old Sanders or rotary Kings....then I we would be in business.......There is an article on Sam Green in a ITEA Journal and an article about another Sanders Tuba somewhere in another journal....(someone correct me if i am wrong)....make sure you all down there in Baton Rouge enjoy that particular instrument...I know it'll get a lot of use in that big studio!!

Keith "someone should donate a Sander tuba to me" Sanders

[Keith Sanders]

Oh yeah,

I wanna say that someone around here said that those old Sander tubas had a different tuning system for the fourth valve......not the usual one that we know......someone back me up on this!!!

Keith

[sailracer90]

Oh yeah,

I wanna say that someone around here said that those old Sander tubas had a different tuning system for the fourth valve......not the usual one that we know......someone back me up on this!!!

Keith

yeah.... its more like a Gb attachment on a bass trombone... it threw me for a loop for a while, lol. Any idea the value?

[sailracer90]

http://www.tubaexchange.com/historic_co ... museum.asp#" target="_blank

looks a lot like the Bb on their website, problem is its actually a C.... huh

[Keith Sanders]

I believe that if you maybe contacted Tim Olt, he is one of Sam Green's old students and could point the way in value......if I had to guess...i would say I could see someone paying 3000 to 4000 for one of these in sound mechanical condition and having workable intonation and a great sound.........but I am NO EXPERT.......just a guess....

I am also sure the tuba repair gurus...Bloke, Tubatinker, Lee.....could take a better guess than I!!!

Keith

[sailracer90]

Also, intonation is really funky around the g on the bottom of the staff... but nowhere else... i dont know whats up with that...

[sailracer90]

Pics going the right way now...

[k001k47]

cool times a billion

[Sam Gnagey]

Most of what has been said about this horn is correct. I never owned one but Bob Woodbury, a friend of mine who studied with Sam Green in the '60s, had one which I played on a little. Sammy had at least two of them. I remember Bob's as being a very dark sweet sounding small horn. The 2 whole-step was the common set up for their 4th valves. One of the characteristics was the long spatulas with string linkage on the back side of the valves. That's the way King made their rotary horns which may have been an attemp to copy the Sander. Tim Olt will probably have more to contribute on this.

[jeopardymaster]

Actually, for quite a while Sam Green owned TWO Sanders. His backup looked a whole lot like this one, although my recollection is that the valve stack was closer to the right hand and the 2nd valve slide and tuning slide both kicked out to the left. He offered it to me, but I had trouble with the c overtone in the staff - way out for me (I think sharp, but can't remember for sure - but it was odd and surprising). I would have wanted to set up a "whammy bar" for the tuning slide and lengthen the 4th valve pipe (tuned to 2 steps), as well as to convert the string action, and at the time I felt that was too much to take on.

David Borsvold bought it, but after that I don't know what happened.

Of the 6 Sander tubas I have seen and played, no 2 had the same physical "footprint" - but each played beautifully in its own unique way. The 4th valve pipe on Fred Marzan's had been lengthened to 2 1/2 steps from 2. Sam's first line Sander had a 5th valve that - if I remember correctly - was 2 1/2 steps. I know the 4th was just 2 steps.

This LSU horn looks like a real gem. Now if Sam's first horn could be updated, and placed with CCM where it belongs, well, that would be a mitzvah.

[sailracer90]

Yeah, the horn was passed down to its original owners son (who apparently was in the Eastman Wind Ensemble) and stored in a warehouse in New Orleans. Then katrina happened, and this horn along with an old conn helicon, 2 alexander Fs and a couple other horns, were pretty much left there for a long time sitting in salt water and were almost destroyed. We managed to salvage all but a tuba and a sousaphone. This is one of them. The repair man at LSU put in a LOT of hours on this horn, and there is still a little more to be done. The second valve is a bit scratchy and the third and 4th are pretty noisy. it could also use another good chem clean. but other than that the thing is perfect and it plays really well. i wish theyd lengthen that 4th valve slide for me, though, haha, it can be rather frustrating... Im probably going to take the instrument repair class next semester here, and that conn helicon will probably be my project, haha. so yeah, if anyone is going to be passing through Baton Rouge, please come and check it out. Shoot me a pm or something.

[J.c. Sherman]

Don't touch that 4th!

I have had the privilege of playing Sam Green's Sander, and it's remarkable. In every manner. Yes, the 4th valve is a 2-step slide, and the 5th valve (for the left hand) is a perfect 4th. It's seen a LOT of use, but when carefully and lovingly lubed up, it is an astonishing handmade instrument.

It's the most free-blowing CC I've played by a long margin... it's basically completely free of resistance. The sound is in many ways very "American" despite its manufacture. The sound is somewhat like a vintage Conn, I'd say, but with a very flexible timbre for whatever you're playing. Unbelievable craftsmanship, and it shows obvious influence over Marzan styled instruments. There's a great deal of "proto-Marzan" about the Sander.

Each of the Sanders is handmade... it's obvious when you look closely at each. And the 2-step 4th makes for a very in-tune scale with many possibilities. Sam's instrument is positively diabolical on low F!

Repair and enjoy, or send it to me >: ) I'd hurt people for this instrument.