Debate? Miraphone 186 vs. 191 vs. 1291

[The Jackson]

ForumJunkie,

Where do you live? If you can't get a hold of some tubas to play a little bit on, it might be time and money well spent to take a drive to a place like Woodwind and Brasswind or some other place with a large selection that you can have some play time with.

I played a school Miraphone 186 for a year and had a very good experience with it. I was never left wanting when I played in a couple of medium/large-sized band, medium-sized orchestra and a brass quintet. A lot of people love that tuba, but you can only know how you'll like it by trying it.

I'm in high school, too, and was in your position a year and a half ago when I had to get my own tuba. I found one that look good on paper, got a hold of it to play for a couple of weeks to play on and bring to my various ensemble rehearsals, LOVED it and that's what I have now.

Good luck!

[iiipopes]

If you're going for BBb instruments, You left out the 187 (BBb version of a 188), which has fantastic intonation and doesn't "bark" in the lowest register like a 186 occasionally can. Also, the newer B&S GR51/PT605 has an absolutely fantastic consistent timbre and response, and the Willson is underappreciated. Finally, any of the Rudy Meinl tubas have great response that belies their larger size.

So even though I love my 186 with its retrofit bell for my applications, don't forget to try the tubas listed above as well.

Most college tuba players who pursue some sort of music degree do end up with a CC, especially if they are performance majors, but if you know you're going to teach school band, a BBb will do just fine.

Final advise, echoed throughout the forum: do not purchase a tuba your freshman year of college. Work with a university instrument until your tuba professor says your are ready to purchase, then keep him in the loop, and discuss these issues with your professor.

[iiipopes]

Then as a community band player, there are a few more choices: the VMI/B&S/Weltklang/Stencil BBb that comes in several variations, usually 4-rotor .748 bore; the King 2341; and the Cerveny 681 series.

Also, used is good. My 186 is from @ 1971. My Besson is also from @ 1971. The 38K is from @ 1930, and the Conn 2J I borrowed recently seems to be from @ 1958. A good used tuba can save you a chunk of change, between 1/4 and 1/3 of "new street price."

Yes, there are some other threads which have talked about the rising quality of St Pete and a couple of the Chinese horns. Study these threads carefully before you purchase, and get return/exchange authority beforehand.

And some guys go after a Conn 2XJ or other old beast for community band. Be ready to spend a significant amount on refurbishing, if not already done so.

[Bob Kolada]

I don't think I would ever recommend a 186 or even a 187 to anyone. I just don't like them that much. I can get a good sound on them but I really have to keep on it and I think they're just too difficult to play. The VMI 2301 thing, though, is a SWEET horn! Nice sound, easy to play,.... I still don't like the stovepipe thing but whatever. The King 2341 is also a very nice horn.

My pick of (any, really!) Bb tubas would be the 1291 and the 191 if you just had to have rotary valves. I find the 1291 easier to play and much more comfortable to hold. The 191 "rips" a bit more in the lowest valve register which you may or may not like. Personally, I would not pick a 191 over a 1291 unless it were significantly cheaper. The ergonomics are what would do it in for me, admittedly a tall guy with long arms who is nowhere near the average tuba player's build... I would pick a 2341 over a 1291 if a smaller, cheaper horn is desired. The VMI 3301 isn't really in the race here.
Used 1291 Bb's don't seem to be that common lately, but I have seen a few 1291 C's in the $5xxx range. If nothing else it would make a lot of people just shut up (and they are nice horns too!).

I still may get a 1291 Bb one day, but I want a contrabass trombone first. That would be a sweet pair of horns!!!

[iiipopes]

I don't think I would ever recommend a 186 or even a 187 to anyone. I just don't like them that much. I can get a good sound on them but I really have to keep on it and I think they're just too difficult to play. The VMI 2301 thing, though, is a SWEET horn! Nice sound, easy to play,.... I still don't like the stovepipe thing but whatever. The King 2341 is also a very nice horn.

That is where our respective experiences differ greatly. My 186 with the St Pete bell & the Curry mouthpiece are one of the easiest combinations to play I have ever had the pleasure, and there are others on this board who will probably take their 187 to the grave with them. OTOH, with the recording bell and the custom Kanstul mouthpiece I had made, it does require more work, and I can see where Bob is coming from. I personally do not care for the VMI variants, although they are fine instruments.

We both agree on the King.

The whole point of this digression is that one size does NOT fit all, so play as many as you can before you make your final decision, and give it a year or two, playing a university instrument or two or three, so you can see what fits you.

[Bob Kolada]

$3500 is possible for a real 191 or 2341 (another good horn), but you probably won't see a 1291 Bb at that for quite a while if ever.