King 2341 - Old vs. New

[SousaSaver]

King 2341 - Old vs. New

As the King Tubas have evolved through the years, what features do you like? Do you prefer the old model with the removable bell, or the new model with the fixed bell? Are there any features that stand out on one or the other that you prefer?

[Rick Denney]

I'm with Joe. The new model is clearly superior. But it's a shame that some of them emerge brand new from their plastic bags with more evidence of wear than old ones that have been in use for many decades. One thing you always have to check is the alignment of the valves. Some that I've played have had stuffy fourth valves, probably in most cases because of poor alignment. And some have been assembled poorly, resulting in a lot of internal stress, though this seems to have affected the first year models the most. Perhaps the removable valve body of the second-year and later editions of the new model prevented that fault. The good ones are very good indeed.

Rick "who prefers the shorter design" Denney

[J.c. Sherman]

The best ones I've played were the short stack with the tuning "pigtail". My teacher had one with three valves and a solid short bell and it was exquisite! The pitch was astonishing, and the sound was glorious. Too many, I think, would try to chop it to CC, but it was PERFECT as it was.

I currently have a tall removable bell version which has been tailored a bit to fix bad gaps and other assembly horrors and a bell front - but USPS says my new upright bell is in the mail BWAhahahahahah!

J.c.S.

[Dan Schultz]

I keep coming back to the 70-ish 2341 with a recording bell for Dixieland use. The only modifications I make are to move the 1st tuning slide to the top and remove the 'curly-cue' from the 3rd valve circuit.

However... my all-time favorite King of this basic design would be the very early 1240/41 (BBb) with the fixed recording bell. You don't see too many of these around any more probably because school use has taken it's toll on them. I have a three-valved one here that I'm using for parts because the bell flare is pretty much separated from the stack.

The only real downside to the Kings is that there is very little seal area between the valve ports... making vertical alignment and piston fit critical.

I don't care for the new detachable valve sections at all. They may be OK for the original factory build where jigs and fixtures are used to build both the valve section and the body. But, once damage occurs... those detachable parts can be really tough to get back into alignment. I think that every repairman/horn builder on this forum will agree that the very best method of building a tuba is to do the final fit of the pistons AFTER installation of the valve section.

[Dan Schultz]

I image (and someone who knows otherwise may certainly correct) that King builds these tubas to completion with the detachable braces, detaches the braces, polishes/lacquers, and then re-attaches the braces. ....

Joe... with modern manufacturing (functional gauges, jigs & fixtures) it should be totally possible to build two sections and then mate them up later. Sort of like the Japanese have been doing for years with pistons... making them for a 'drop-in' fit.

The problem comes when one of the two pieces gets whacked out of shape. I've NEVER had a Yamaha valve section simply bolt back onto the horn after repairs without having to unsolder the mating lugs from the body and repositioning them. But.... I'll bet one could go to the Yamaha factory and pick up any NEW valve section and attach it to any NEW body without a problem.

If King/Conn/Selmer/Steinway has any 'good manufacturing practice' systems in place at all... they should be able to do the same thing.

[Dan Schultz]

I image (and someone who knows otherwise may certainly correct) that King builds these tubas to completion with the detachable braces, detaches the braces, polishes/lacquers, and then re-attaches the braces. ....

Joe... with modern manufacturing (functional gauges, jigs & fixtures) it should be totally possible to build two sections and then mate them up later. Sort of like the Japanese have been doing for years with pistons... making them for a 'drop-in' fit.

The problem comes when one of the two pieces gets whacked out of shape. I've NEVER had a Yamaha valve section simply bolt back onto the horn after repairs without having to unsolder the mating lugs from the body and repositioning them. But.... I'll bet one could go to the Yamaha factory and pick up any NEW valve section and attach it to any NEW body without a problem.

If King/Conn/Selmer/Steinway has any 'good manufacturing practice' systems in place at all... they should be able to do the same thing.

I'm not arguing the possibility, but I see too many inconsistencies in (even the visible variations in shapes) of new-style King 2341 tubas to be able to believe that this is what they do. Overwhelming "proof" (at least enough for me) that they do not build valvesets and bodies separately (and the conclusion that they build them, and then unbolt them for polishing) came to me when I discovered that one 52J's valveset did not come anywhere close to bolting up to another 52J body.

I think you are probably correct. The key word in my statement was "they SHOULD be able to do the same thing". I'm not so sure the Yamaha assemblies will interchange... but they should.

[SousaSaver]

The features of the newer King 2341 that I like are:

- Tunable 1st slide. - I mean with your left hand, while you are playing. Some of the more modern old style 2341's have this and some don't.

- Ergonomics - I like the position of the mouthpipe, and the fact that the pipe is nickel silver. This material prolongs the life of the mouth pipe.

- Detachable Cluster - A detachable cluster makes cleaning and valve alignment easier (for me anyhow...).

Some improvements that could be made (in my opinion) -

- 4th valve circuit water key - Some people know what I am talking about. There is an area on the horn in the 4th valve circuit that collects water like crazy. Not a huge problem, but easily solved with a water key.

- Giant valve buttons - This is sort of nit-picking, but some people aren't crazy about the unnecessarily large valve buttons. I am a fan of the old buttons, because they are interchangeable with the King Euphs.

- Valve noise - With a few minor adjustments, your valves can be virtually silent.

Just my opinions...I could be wrong

[sloan]

The features of the newer King 2341 that I like are:

- Tunable 1st slide. - I mean with your left hand, while you are playing. Some of the more modern old style 2341's have this and some don't.

AGREED. I pull only for low Eb - but if I had better ears I'm sure I'd find others.

- Ergonomics - I like the position of the mouthpipe, and the fact that the pipe is nickel silver. This material prolongs the life of the mouth pipe.

- Detachable Cluster - A detachable cluster makes cleaning and valve alignment easier (for me anyhow...).

AGREED on both. One nicety - the bolts look a bit funny, but servicable replacements can be found at any hardware store in an emergency.

Some improvements that could be made (in my opinion) -

- 4th valve circuit water key - Some people know what I am talking about. There is an area on the horn in the 4th valve circuit that collects water like crazy. Not a huge problem, but easily solved with a water key.

HUH? Your's doesn't have 4th valve water key? Mine does - but mine is a "new, new" model. Some players tell me that they get water in the knuckle of 4th valve - but on mine all I have to do is hold the tuba straight up and down and open the 4th valve water key. Almost all of the rest of the water retained in mine is in the UPPER portions of the 1st and 3rd valve loops. I pull and dump these, and actually find very little use for the other two water keys on the bottom loops.

- Giant valve buttons - This is sort of nit-picking, but some people aren't crazy about the unnecessarily large valve buttons. I am a fan of the old buttons, because they are interchangeable with the King Euphs.

Different strokes... For me, the huge buttons were a selling point. I love them!

- Valve noise - With a few minor adjustments, your valves can be virtually silent.

Just my opinions...I could be wrong

[SousaSaver]

Some players tell me that they get water in the knuckle of 4th valve

That's what I was referring to. But if you have to deal with a little water for a good horn...that's what you do.

People would give my college Tuba professor a hard time about dumping his slides on stage. So when he gave a recital he dumped all of his water into a tiny cactus on stage. I spent the whole recital trying not to laugh between pieces.

[iiipopes]

Some players tell me that they get water in the knuckle of 4th valve

This is why a player learns the "King Spin."

Which variant? If I were a high school student, the 2-piece recording bell so it is easier to carry in two cases and you can't set it down on its bell. If I were in community band, a newer one made just before the removable valve section, for all the reasons stated above. If (which I do) I played both indoor and outdoor gigs, a detachable model with at least the recording and upright bells, and in addition a 16 1/2 inch stovepipe for polka gigs (I almost bought one like this, with both bells, but it sold before I got my $$ together, so I have the Miraphone 186 with both bells instead). Dixieland or trad jazz, the one-piece recording bell like TubaTinker.

[Lew]

The first tuba I bought in 1993 after returning to playing after an 18 year hiatus was the old, 2 piece 2341 with an upright bell. It was a very tall horn that was awkward to hold in some ways, but worked for me. It was a bit much to lug around in the two hard cases. After playing for several years I decided that it felt stuffy. The low range took a lot of effort and the sound wasn't very focused. Of course it could have been the specific horn, but I never really liked the horn after getting back into playing enough to be able to tell the difference. I tried a couple of other horns to replace it, including a VMI 3302 and a Cerveny 786, but eventually decided to buy a new King 2341. I tried out 6 of them at Dillon music and there were two of them that clearly played better for me than the others. The one I bought was in satin silver and have been happy with it ever since. Mine is the second new version, which was lengthened to overcome the tendency to play sharp that the first version had, but was before it had a detachable valve section. Mine also had the old style small valve buttons, but I replaced them (and the valve caps) with the larger ones when they came out. I find the larger buttons more comfortable.

Having owned both I find my new version to be much better playing than the old one, and certainly easier to transport. Intonation, sound and response are all better on the new one. My old 2341 had the problem of "water" accumulation much worse than the new one. I found that I had to do the "King spin" several times with it during a rehearsal or performance. The new one rarely has water accumulate in any way that can't easily be dealt with without the spin. The only thing I would change is the thumb ring, which I find to be a little sharp on the edge. I would prefer a more rounded ring like the one on my King 1291. The small bore on both of these makes them easier to overblow, but that is easy to avoid. The only BBb tuba that I tried when buying this that I would have bought instead was the Miraphone 1291, but I couldn't justify the additional cost for the playing that I do.