Soldering german silver

[OldHorn]

I'd like any advice on what solders would work well on german silver, and are german silver leadpipe sections available?
I bought a little basket case tenor helicon on EBAY recently. It is my guinea pig to try my hand at do-it-yourself horn repair. After cleaning all the black and green off (an ordeal to say the least), I found it is made entirely of german silver. No makers name, a leaf spring water key and perinet valves, so I'm guessing it is circa 1870's or '80's. I have the bell off, valve cluster removed, circular dummy brace off, and it is missing the leadpipe altogether. My goal is to have it playing in time for the 2011 TubaChristmas season. My son can't wait, as "you see double bells everywhere....." Any advice on fixing this little baby up would be appreciated. Does anyone out there have a playable one? I'd like to see a few pictures of some.
Thanks!

[imperialbari]

If that helicon is European it could be down to 80 or 90 years old, as that kind of springs held on in certain regions for quite long. The all nickel silver construction would be very rare in Europe though.

I am not so much interested in soldering, as I don’t do that kind of things. However I am interested in bending nickel silver. Tuesday saw the arrival of an old German trombone previously owned by Mozarteum in Salzburg (which makes it a student instrument anyway).

The outside packaging was OK, but the internal packaging was absent, so the slide could slide (ha ha) in the case. The pad section of the water key was bent, so that the outer edge of the cork barely touches the nipple. That is: the two round items are almost totally offset now.

I am aware that I have to unmount the key, as bending it while sitting between the posts may rip off one or both posts. And I have no vice.

With yellow brass I might have bent it back just using my hands.

Klaus

[SousaSaver]

I could be wrong, but it's not likely that this horn is made entirely of nickel silver, or german silver (which is a strange name because there is NO silver in it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_silver

Try this cleaning procedure from my blog. It might help:
http://sousacentral.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... ilver.html

You can buy a nickel silver mouth pipe tube...from a repair man. I think you can order it from Allied, but I am unsure. You would need more than a mouth pipe. You also need a neck, tuning bits and neck receiver.

There is no guarantee that the valves will be any good.

All I am saying is that in my opinion this might cost more money than it is worth to get up and running. I am not trying to push you away from this project, I just want you to give it a bit of thought before you spend too much money on it.

Clean it up and post some more pics. Might be able to help identify it.

[imperialbari]

Kruspe, Paxman, and Conn have made horns entirely out of nickel silver but for the rotors. Weren’t the Olds Opera trombones out of nickel silver. Conn had some Connstellation trumpets, cornets, and trombones mostly out of Nickel silver.

With run of the mill instruments it hardly is worth the costs and efforts to rebuild badly worn, damaged, or aged instruments. With the next to unique ones the rules change. If somebody finds the costs worthwhile, they are worthwhile.

Klaus

[SousaSaver]

Kruspe, Paxman, and Conn have made horns entirely out of nickel silver but for the rotors. Weren’t the Olds Opera trombones out of nickel silver. Conn had some Connstellation trumpets, cornets, and trombones mostly out of Nickel silver.

Yeah, but NOT Helicons. There are some Tubas made of nickel silver, but they are very rare.

[imperialbari]

A tenor helicon like the object of this thread actually has much less length of tubing than a double horn. There is NO reason why this instrument should not be out of nickel silver. A thorough polish may tell something different, but it is not inherently impossible or unlikely.

Klaus

[SousaSaver]

A tenor helicon like the object of this thread actually has much less length of tubing than a double horn. There is NO reason why this instrument should not be out of nickel silver. A thorough polish may tell something different, but it is not inherently impossible or unlikely.

Klaus

Klaus -

I did a little bit of research and it turns out you are right. I thought it was less common to make these things out of nickel silver but I was wrong.

I second Brian's suggestion. Send this to a shop to fix up.

[OldHorn]

Thanks to all who have posted comments and advice. Here is a picture as some of it looks now. The valve cluster is about 97% cleaned, and the big bow maybe 65%. It is not silver plate, not raw brass or is it plated. I still believe it is made of German silver. 3 Slides are out and #2 will be shortly. The cracking dosen't show much here, but 4 or 5 patches will be needed on the big bow section. The two nasty spots on the tubes are where braces were soldered on. I believe I can solder it up. Hey, how hard can it be? I have plenty of window screen and JB Weld as a backup plan. I make 26 point Moravian Stars from .003" brass that measure 3.25" tip to tip, also from copper and sterling. The trick is to get all the solder joints inside so they don't show. Every point has a seam, and all the points attach together. See picture.
I'd rather spend hundreds on a T. Helicon and wind up with a wall hanger than spend $20 on any Twumpit.
Cheers!

[toobagrowl]

^Looks raw brass to me. German silver (nickel-silver, right?) does not tarnish dark like that; it just gets dull/hazy but still has the "silver" color...
Your horn has a brass color to it, not German/nickel-silver.

[OldHorn]

The color in the photo is misleading. It has a soft silver steel color after cleaned. And, G. Silver WILL tarnish after many years depending on the environment it is in, to a dark blackish green color, the percentage of nickel having a bearing on it. This is not raw brass. In fact, I found only one brass piece, an internal connector piece about an inch and a half long where the fake wrap attaches to the main bow.

[toobagrowl]

^Whatever you say
http://www.ganoksin.com/orchid/archive/ ... g00021.htm" target="_blank

Why are you asking if you already know so much about it?

[Donn]

I have to say, that was not very well done. Anyone who cares to follow up with a web search will see plenty of plenty of pages that talk about black tarnish, and wonder why you didn't see them.

The crazy man's approach to cracks might be to seal them up with silver solder. Might be almost worth considering, in the unlikely event there were a way to get the cracks really clean. I bet that at an instrument repair shop, they'll mostly use silver solder with nickel silver, just because they will be soldering cracked clarinet keys and the like, and strength is an issue.

Solder outside would be the least of my worries. Solder inside could make it play poorly, and even worse a leak due to not enough solder. Anyway, for heavens sake, practice on something similar before attacking a unique 130 year old horn.

[toobagrowl]

I have to say, that was not very well done. Anyone who cares to follow up with a web search will see plenty of plenty of pages that talk about black tarnish, and wonder why you didn't see them.

*burps* I'm sorry.....did you say something? I have to say, your post was not very well done either. Have you even READ what was said about nickel-silver? I have searched the web and found no pages or images of nickel-silver that has tarnished black. You gave no links (proof) to back up your statement. If you would provide proof of nickel-silver that is tarnished black then I am all eyes and will walk away with my tail between my legs Until then.......