Recording Device for the tuba?

[j1007hc]

Hi

As recording oneself is invaluable to one's development, I am looking into purchasing a recording device. I know some people hold to their Roland Edirol. I also know some people with the Zoom brand of recording devices. My main concern would be picking up the lower frequencies of the tuba.

Any suggestions?

[CC]

Andrew Bove just published an article related to this that you may find helpful.

http://andrewbove.com/2011/12/audition-recording-tips/" target="_blank

Personally, I've used a Zoom H2 for several years and the quality and ease of use is great, I can't recommend it enough. They are extremely affordable nowadays but if you are looking for something more "beefy" the article gives you some good suggestions.

[The Jackson]

I really dig my Zoom H2! Here is a side-by-side with the H2 and the microphone on a Flip camcorder. You'll have to turn up your volume for the H2 sections because I didn't adjust my levels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53fL8U07OAE" target="_blank

[jimgray]

http://transom.org/?page_id=7514" target="_blank

[Rick Denney]

Looking at the specs for the Zoom H2, I'm thinking there are problems for critical recordings. The internal microphones roll off significantly at low frequencies, for one thing. Their microphone frequency response chart for the internal mikes shows a 10dB drop at 30 Hz. That's with the "Low-Cut" control turned off (it would be much worse with it turned on).



The mike-in jacks apparently do not like low-impedance microphones, which limits what you can do with external mikes. They are supposedly low-impedance jacks, but people who have tried them report high hiss levels, probably from too much gain on the internal pre-amp for the low-impedance source. A higher-impedance microphone apparently works better.

And the line-in jacks, if you use an external sound system and the Zoom only as a recording device, are apparently very picky about levels. The record-level control is in the digital stage, after A/D conversion, and the reviews I've seen reveal that the analog stage is susceptible to clipping if the input levels are too high. One tester reported clipping at an input of 630 millivolts, while the RIAA standard for a line-in jack requires peaks to one volt. There is no pad control in the analog stage to reduce the line-in signal, and it has to be controlled externally. Thus, a good mike would need a pre-amp and a pad going into the line-in to get really good results. But if you dial all that in perfectly, apparently the recording is quite clean and linear, between ideal MP3 and CD quality. But doing all that undermines the value of the device's portability.

If you play it back through headphones or through a pair of small speakers, the roll-off of the internal microphones probably doesn't matter. They won't reproduce those low frequencies in any case. And the low frequencies are not all-important--we can tell a lot about our sound even with that roll-off. But you might not get the bottom end as it came from the tuba if you can play it back on a system with a subwoofer or large enough loudspeakers that frequencies down below 50 Hz are possible. If you have an equalizer with enough divisions, you might be able to boost the 64 Hz control to restore the level at those frequencies, but again this is only worth it if you have a playback system that can produce those frequencies.

Rick "who uses an ancient Sony Minidisc recorder that depends on the nice Audio-Technika At-822 binaural stereo microphone, and it works well enough" Denney

[mbell]

The Zoom H4N is an improvement over the H2. The low frequencies don't roll off as much. In recording my brass band I always though the cornets sounded a bit too bright. Sure enough, looking at the frequency response chart for the H4N, there is a bit of a bump around the 3 KHz to 7 KHz range. In post processing I usually pull those frequencies down about 1dB to 3dB. I usually give about a 3dB to 4dB bump with a gentle curve centered around 35Hz to 40 Hz or so to make up for the roll off. That's probably a tad more than I should, but hey, we like bass.

Even without those tweaks the H4N sounds pretty good. It has XLR inputs too, which I have not tried yet. The noise floor should be a fair bit lower. Through online discounters or used, the H4N is usually just a little more expensive than the H2. I bought mine from a guy on eBay.

mike

[Wyvern]

I have been quite satisfied with the results from my H2 with good feedback on the results from other musicians, except flute players who sometimes think it does not bring them out enough. However it picks up the tuba well.

[termite]

I've found the H2 incredibly useful but not perfect.

The sound level it produces is very low. I imagine it needs some sort of pre-amp.

When recording myself practicing I don't want to enhance or flatter my sound in any way - I want the playback to make me try to drag more sound out of the thing.
I record my practicing with the H2 on the opposite side to the bell - I'm recording the ambient sound in the room, not trying to mic up the tuba. I don't compress my practice recordings - I want to hear if something isn't loud enough compared to something else.

Recording rehearsals - there is a clipping problem.
I use the built in compressor setting for loud rehearsals. It does a great job of capturing the soft bits with plenty of signal but is not so great at knocking off the loud bits so I tend to set the overall input level fairly low.

When recording loud bands in dead, harsh sounding rooms I found that the tubas weren't coming through and the higher instruments were harsh and horrible sounding.
My current technique for recording in these situations is to put the H2 a good thirty feet in front of the band and use the rear mics with the rear mics facing AWAY from the band and have something like a padded chair back or item of clothing two inches behind the H2. This mellows out the treble nicely and allows the tubas to come through and adds a bit of reverb like effect to the recording and is much more flattering to the band. This method doesn’t produce an incredible sound stage or stereo image.
If I listen to the band live from the recording position and listen back to the recording straight away the tubas don’t come through as well as in real life. They still sound better than using the front mics pointing towards the band.
If you are trying to make your large ensemble tuba playing sound bigger and more colourful out in the audience then listening back to these recordings will make this happen much better than having the musical director telling you to play more.
If you start to sound like the real thing on the recordings then you must be really kicking ***. (To coin a phrase).
A picture is worth a thousand words.

If you recorded a large group in a really nice sounding hall and set the H2 up to capture the sound from a sweet spot in the room rather than trying to mic up the group you would get a reasonable recording.
If you used it as a USB mic for a computer and recorded one instrument at a time on different tracks you could probably produce a reasonable small group recording.
If you have mics with better specs than the H2’s internal mics and a pre-amp you will capture a better signal but it will cost a lot more than the H2 and you have to set it all up.
I’ve heard that the H4 is better for clipping.

For the cost and ease of use the H2 is an incredible self teaching tool – you’ll never leave it behind because you can’t be bothered setting it all up. The cost is so low you don’t have to think before buying one.

Regards

Gerard

[Bove]

Looking at the specs for the Zoom H2, I'm thinking there are problems for critical recordings.

Definately!

There is no consumer recorder that wouldn't have problems for critical recordings. The cost of the electronic parts to properly build a "critical quality" power supply, phantom power, microphone preamplifiers, and analog to digital conversion, all fitting inside a small enclosure, is simply too expensive to offer at a consumer price point.

That being said, you can make nice recordings with just about any equipment- if you pay attention, use your ears, and set things up as best as you can!

[Kory101]

When I record myself for me, I use this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/X37-Belkin-Tune ... 0646709124

When I need to make a CD or DVD recording, I hire a professional.

Kory

[MackBrass]

Kodak Zi10 has an external mic jack that does pretty and the video is HD. One problem is background hiss when using an external mic but you will look great. Wal-Mart has them for about $150.00

Zoom H1, very good and you can set the mic gain from 0-100. For recording in my basement I usually set the mic gain to about 35 and place the Zoom H1 about 5 feet away. This is a very clean recording device for under $100.00. Got mine from Guitar Center for $55.00.

Zoom Q3HD, great video and audio with one big draw back. The mic gain only has two settings, high and low. The low is too low and the high is to high. The fix i discovered was to use the H1 as the external mic and set the mic gain to about 40 while setting the mic gain on the Q3 to High. So far this has been my best setup for audio and video. These are about $300.00, got mine off CL for $125.00.

Zoom H4, another great recorder I just picked up. Not as user friendly and I am still learning my way around it. These are about $300.00, bought mine for $65.00

Downside to all the Zoom products I have is that they only use AA batteries so you better keep a good inventory.

The best and easiest device I have ever had is the Sony Mini-disk recorder. Very clear recordings and uses an external mic. I still have it and use it every now and then, not to bad for something about 12 years old.

Some thoughts about recording your practice sessions:
Very good to do but don't get lost in recording everything you do as it will take time away from what you should be doing and that is practicing. Use the technology as a tool and record yourself for self-feedback. What I mean is don't spend half your practice time with recording and listening to the recording. Record what your doing, then put it away and study the recording separately. I am a big supporter of recording what your working on so that you can hear what the audience hears and have been doing this since the tape deck was the best technology. Problem back in the day with a tape deck is that it only plays back in mono, boy have things changed.

Good Luck,

Tom

[Art Hovey]

I am still very happy with the Roland Edirol that I purchased several years ago, and I use it a lot. They have newer models now with more bells and whistles, but it's a very dependable and accurate recorder for all situations. The built-in microphones are excellent, but I get better stereo separation with a pair of external condenser mics. I made a simple adaptor to connect two XLR cables to a single stereo mini-plug. It works.

[Paul Tkachenko]

I use my Zoom H4 all the time.

As already pointed out, if the recording is for public consumption, hire a professional.

My experience is that you can buy all the gear that professionals use, you can't just 'buy' their knowledge and experience. If you buy all the good gear and don't know how to use it, it is likely to sound pretty bad.

Tuba can be tricky to record (depending on the context).

[Lingon]

I am also using the H2 when practicing. So small that it could be with you always. Good enough to let you hear veyr much of what you do. Also doubles as USB interface/mics so you could use your favorite software doing sound experiments and experiences.
For me the best way seems to use the mics on the back side pointing away from the instrument, at least in the room I usually practice in. With that method it works very well both for my tuba and my trombones. Have not tested in large halls and with large groups, but for practicing it is easy to set up and use.
Unfortunately it ates batteries, but rechargeable NiMhs works fine.
About recording practice sessions I have over the years used simple cassette recorders, wheel tape, MD, computers and the H2. Everything works if you learn to use it. Even cassette recorders are fine even if they do not tell you the whole truth, but OTOH no recording does tell you everything.
All of our concerts with the orchestra are recorded/broadcasted but the orchestra never sounds like what it does in real life. So recordings are great tools and they could give you great experiences but the real stuff seems to be almost impossible to record so it sounds totally true.
All in all, I vote for the H2 as a great practicing tool.

[Mark]

Zoom H4, another great recorder I just picked up. Not as user friendly and I am still learning my way around it. These are about $300.00, bought mine for $65.00

If the one you have is an H4n (note the n), then consider this DVD: http://www.amazon.com/Portable-Digital- ... B0035LCVXU. It is worth the cost.

[MartyNeilan]

Any suggestions on how to make the newer generation iPhones acceptable for practice recordings? Any inexpensive external mics or similar equipment (or would the internal mic even be adequate? I cannot find any specs on the mic itself.)

[Kory101]

Any suggestions on how to make the newer generation iPhones acceptable for practice recordings? Any inexpensive external mics or similar equipment (or would the internal mic even be adequate? I cannot find any specs on the mic itself.)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/X37-Belkin-Tune ... 0646709124" target="_blank

Cheap and will expose EVERYTHING in your practice.

Kory

[Rick Denney]

Well as usual, it is my opinion that you guys are talking in circles !
If you want to practice, you’re missing the point of recording yourself.

I was specifically answering this concern:

My main concern would be picking up the lower frequencies of the tuba.

The old minidisc recorder I use, with a decent microphone, is also a compromise, but it works for the purpose, as I said.

Rick "who cannot usually find any way to hear what it sounds like out front with a home recording solution, but who can hear, all too well, articulation, phrasing, tonal core, and pitch with even a cheap recorder" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

Any suggestions on how to make the newer generation iPhones acceptable for practice recordings? Any inexpensive external mics or similar equipment (or would the internal mic even be adequate? I cannot find any specs on the mic itself.)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/X37-Belkin-Tune ... 0646709124" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Cheap and will expose EVERYTHING in your practice.

Kory

EDIT: Found out that it will not work on an iPhone 4 because there is no longer a line level input on the phone's docking connector. Looks like it will work on an iPhone 3 in "Airplane Mode." Just a little concerned about the low frequency rolloff.