Tonguing Problems

[Bacchanalia]

I've been doing a lot of digging around the internet and on here, trying to find helpful info on my tonguing issue. So I got excited to see Rick Denney giving someone advice on the same issue I'm dealing with (and he's apparently overcome)...pushing the tongue too far forward. Rick described it as

the tonguing attack pushes into the teeth, making it less "tu-tu-tu" and more "thu-thu-thu"

It seems I can control the problem in the upper and middle range, and even well below the staff as long as the tonguing isn't moving too quickly...but as soon as anything below the staff starts moving at a decent clip, the "thuh, thuh, thuh" starts showing up again. If I try to "force" it to stay back so that the tonguing is the same no matter what range I'm in, the lower notes just don't want to speak.

I'm hoping Rick or some of you other Sage types out there might be willing to share some more knowledge of this problem...maybe even point me toward some better resources than I'm finding on my own. If there are any books or online stuff about the physiology of tonguing problems...exercises for this problem...anything that might help...I'd really appreciate it

I'm finding tons of people talking about double and triple tonguing, but not so much on fixing problems like this

[Roger Lewis]

I've done a fair amount of research on this as well as evaluation of my own method of attack and have found a couple of things that seem to be necessary to have what I would call a good attack. I've worked with a few big name professional players who were having issues like this.

Overtime as we "improve" as a player, we get into an area where we start to try to over control the attack for extremely soft entrances and we tend to pull back on the air and start controlling it from somewhere other than the front of the mouth.

The "symptom" of this that I listen for is a very slight puff of air in the sound before the note commences. This tells me that the air is starting away from the tongue and that non-energized air in the front of the mouth needs to be pushed through the embouchure that does not activate the vibration of the lips, before the energized air gets there to set the embouchure in motion.

The "cure" for this that I've come up with is to whisper the syllable "HUT" holding the "T". You will now feel the air at the front of the mouth, right behind the tongue where it belongs. The go right into your basic attack from the held "T" and you will get a fundamentally solid attack. I use "TOE" as my basic attack so the sequence for me is "HUT-TOE", again all whispered. You never want to train the attack with the vocal chords involved as it can lead to other issues.

Work on this sequence away from the horn and get used to the "feel" of having the air right behind the tongue when you start the attack. This is the key and it isn't hard, but the air needs to be at the front of the mouth, right behind the tongue to avoid that puff of air at the start of the note. Work on it slowly, getting the feel of it and slowly pick up the speed of the double syllable attack, eventually moving to a single syllable attack, but with the energy of the air where it belongs, right behind the tongue.

This may not solve your particular issue, but this might be a contributing factor. Without having heard you play it would be very difficult for anyone to really offer an insight to what you describe. I have just found the issue that I described to be quite common with students (of all ages) I have taught.

[ghmerrill]

I like Roger's suggestion and his observations seem consistent with my own problems and experience in the contra range. I've realized that my problem in most of these cases is just not enough air. (I'm still trying to reacquire skills from having laid off for 15 years, and playing Second Suite with a decent band recently has reminded me of why I got the BBb in the first place and what some of the challenges were -- and now are again.)

Another suggestion I might offer (based on my own ineptness at the moment) is that I find that in the low range, what initially appears as failure of tonguing may in fact be failure of embouchure (again, I guess to prepare and support for the air stream). So I would recommend also paying attention to your embouchure in those circumstances and not just focusing on the tongue/attack.

[pierso20]

Try using a "do" instead of a "tu".

I must prefer "do". It's more natural, prevents getting too close to the teeth. It also helps release the air more smoothly.

It can also some people to double tongue with the "d" sound. Such as, "dig-a, dig-a, dig-a"

Good luck!

[Bacchanalia]

Thanks guys, very useful information. All different perspectives, and I think they ALL apply here in one way or another.

Like Gary, I'd been off the horn for years, and only recently dug back in. I'm very committed and some things - capacity for one - are actually better than years ago, thanks to discovering Jake and his nifty toys and daily (over)-use of them

But even if I'm getting a fairly decent sound (for awhile), the embouchure certainly tires too quickly...so the idea that this is really an embouchure failure, presenting as a tonguing issue really resonates for me...especially since it gets worse as everything gets fatigued.

Bloke's comment about release valve instead of striker makes perfect sense. But I think I'm actually going too far the other way...not so much striker as welling up the air behind a tongue "stopper" and then releasing with a harder "plosive" effect as the tongue pulls back in order to somehow get more "bang for my buck" out of the air-stream - which should tell me that this is definitely some sort of compensating mechanism. I don't remember doing this years ago...it's only showed up since getting "back into shape".

Which leads to Bloke's best piece of advice on this topic...Don't think too much...Very Jake of you, Bloke - Paralysis by analysis

Oddly, this is my way of making sure I don't think too much about it while I'm playing...I think too much about it before, trying to come up with a game plan...then I do my plan for the next practice session...then I think too much about whether that worked and what I should or shouldn't change. The underlying theme being that I tend to think too much...LOL

[Doug Elliott]

The tongue is only a refinement of what needs to happen without it.

The real issue is embouchure and air, and the coordination of them. Many or most players play low range with the mouth so far open that the lips don't actually touch until they get enough air to start flapping in the wind. It is much more efficient to make sure your lips are touching each other so the slightest bit of air will start a vibration.

Practice a lot with NO tongue to start the notes, just air, not "attacks," but feeling the lips touching and gently letting the embouchure start vibrating. This is difficult in the low range so work the middle first and go down.

You'll have a lot easier time figuring out where your tonguing works when the chops are working efficiently.

[swillafew]

I have been told a few times that tonguing is my strong suit. I was surprised when I got a clear mouthpiece; the syllables (tu vs. du, etc) may not correspond to what is really occurring! I have been a lying dog when describing my own technique. Therefore, I shall not recommend one.

Anyhow, just like every other aspect of playing, the more attention it gets, the better it becomes. Repeated note practice seems pretty tame or boring, but it has a lot of recommend it. Descending scales through the range you are least happy about seem like a good plan of attack.

I had my best lessons with a teacher who never let me off the most basic parts of my playing. It was humbling (or worse) at the time, but it paid off for many years.