buying a horn - apples to oranges I know, but could use help

[aaronz28]

I can't think of a better place to air my thoughts, and try to hone in on what I want to buy - so here goes.

I woke up one morning about a month ago with a strong notion to get back into playing tuba - I was a brass perf. major in College, owned a HB-21 that I loved (other than low Bb) and as soon as I finished my senior recital, threw the horn up for sale, as I landed a gig as an organist - (my other love) and have been busy ever since.

It has now been about 10 years since I even picked up a horn, (or mouthpiece for that matter) but I have the itch to buy and start playing again.

Originally, I decided that I wanted a York CC - JUST BECAUSE - disclaimer - I am a vintage snob, always have been, always will be - LOL - but as I started researching these horns, I quickly learned that it isn't as simple as just looking online and Buying the first one - so i know of 3 available horns, all of which are Frankentubas - basically king valves on a converted/cut top valve York with a monster Eb bell - while all indications are that these are excellent horns - Im' just not 100% sure this is the route I want to go - especially at $6500-7000 (having a hard time wrapping my head around those figures knowing that these are pieced together instruments)

So, I started looking at other options. As much as I loved my HB21, I am not going to shell out well-into 5 figures just to get back into playing. BUT i could stomach 7-8k on a used HB21 which seems to be where a few are currently priced.... so now i"m thinking FrankenYork at 7k vs HB21 at 8k????

I would love to someday own a restored silver 692 - but knowing from Lee that there are so few out there, I might wait a lifetime for one. I can't see my self buying a 712 just to cut -
I would entertain an original BBb 712 if it were in good or restored condition.

at any rate, you see where i'm spinning my head now - any thoughts from you guys who know these horns to give me some perspective?

Many thanks
A

[aaronz28]

Why York - well - a few reasons - mostly romantic memories LOL.

I studied with Oscar LaGasse - he RAVED about York horns every opportunity he could (with me at least) even at 97(His age at my last lesson)

I played (for years) one of his Yorks in his basement for lessons - I tried doing some research on his horns and the only thing I could find was a YorkMaster that I believe Rick Denney now owns - and I'm quite certain that this is not the horn I played - I vividly remember the ornate logo on the bell and even in Oscar's basement - it had this GINORMOUS sound that I can still remember.

Of course, If Gene Pokorny can get by with one.... LOL

anyhow - I have been emailing Lee about York horns, as well as a few other individuals - he shared a few images of his horns and they do look very cool - he hasn't responded to my question about $$$ just yet though

cheers

[hbcrandy]

Why York?I laughed at the above bit! All tubas are piece together instruments. Yes, I know what you mean, but think of it as a modern take on the old York frame.

All York tubas were not GREAT!!! From my experience with York tubas, I find York famous for its distinctive, rich sound, not necesssarily for other playing characteristics like intonation. A lot of the older players were willing to play an instrument with difficult, but workable intonation because of the sound the instrument produced.

In the days of J. W. York and Sons, Grand Rapids, Michigan, there were not the plethora of scientifically designed instruments that are available today. Mr. Torchinsky, Mr. Bell and Mr. Novotny played the rotary valved King CC tuba. At a lesson, Mr. Torchinsky told me that there were very few of that tuba made and many were bad tubas. He thought his was the best of the ones that he had tried. He said that once he learned to play it (i.e. overcome the intonation issues and response quirks) it worked for him. The legendary Kruspe French horn is another example of a horn with a great sound and intonation issues that varied from horn to horn due to the lack of precision that was possible at that time in forming the tapered tubing which is critical to the instrument being in tune with itself. But, it was played for the sound.

I briefly owned 4/4 York CC non-Frankentuba. Its sound was great. I so much wanted the tuba to work for me. But, the scale that the tuba played was something that was not known to Western music. I had to sell it. The point of my preceeding comments is that the York Frankentubas that are being adapted today, incorprate the great York sound from the York bells and improved intonation and reponse from larger bore valve sets, different lead pipes and, in some cases, different branches offering optimized tapers. Kiltie Tuba has stated my arguement more succinctly. The new adaptations of the older instruments are drawing on the good features of the original models and improving the flaws that the originals had.

[Jay Bertolet]

Why York - well - a few reasons - mostly romantic memories LOL.

I studied with Oscar LaGasse - he RAVED about York horns every opportunity he could (with me at least) even at 97(His age at my last lesson)

I played (for years) one of his Yorks in his basement for lessons - I tried doing some research on his horns and the only thing I could find was a YorkMaster that I believe Rick Denney now owns - and I'm quite certain that this is not the horn I played - I vividly remember the ornate logo on the bell and even in Oscar's basement - it had this GINORMOUS sound that I can still remember.

I have to ask: Do we know each other? Oscar was my first tuba teacher back in the day and I had on and off contact with him until his death. Anyhow, I'm pretty sure the tuba you played was his York Master. It's the only York tuba I ever saw at his place and it had a very ornate engraving on the bell. I owned a similar instrument myself, purchased from Custom Music, before switching horns in college. Oscar used a string action rotary CC with the DSO primarily. I believe it was an Alexander. The York was eventually sold to Rick Denney and he still has it today, as far as I know. Very nice horn!

Not that it would be any cheaper of an option for you but you might check into the new Kanstul tubas. At least some of them are modeled after York designs. I'm sure Lee Stofer can chime in with specific information on them. They might be an alternative for you. Good luck!

[Bowerybum]

"I have to ask: Do we know each other? Oscar was my first tuba teacher back in the day and I had on and off contact with him until his death. Anyhow, I'm pretty sure the tuba you played was his York Master. It's the only York tuba I ever saw at his place and it had a very ornate engraving on the bell. I owned a similar instrument myself, purchased from Custom Music, before switching horns in college. Oscar used a string action rotary CC with the DSO primarily. I believe it was an Alexander. The York was eventually sold to Rick Denney and he still has it today, as far as I know. Very nice horn!"

"Not that it would be any cheaper of an option for you but you might check into the new Kanstul tubas. At least some of them are modeled after York designs. I'm sure Lee Stofer can chime in with specific information on them. They might be an alternative for you. Good luck!"
FYI:
Oscar had a factory York CC that he played with the orchestra before he got the Alexander. I only saw
it a couple of times. Don't know who got it when he sold it. The BBflat York that Rick Denny owns Oscar
bought after he retired from the DSO. I remember seeing that horn or one just like it at Custom Music
(Meyer's Music at the time) when they were located on Grand River near Trumbull in Detroit, not Ferndale.
The horn was $750.00 at the time. Best Regards, Eric Hult

[Untersatz]

I woke up one morning about a month ago with a strong notion........

I've had a few of those mornings myself!!!

[Jay Bertolet]

FYI:
Oscar had a factory York CC that he played with the orchestra before he got the Alexander. I only saw
it a couple of times. Don't know who got it when he sold it. The BBflat York that Rick Denny owns Oscar
bought after he retired from the DSO. I remember seeing that horn or one just like it at Custom Music
(Meyer's Music at the time) when they were located on Grand River near Trumbull in Detroit, not Ferndale.
The horn was $750.00 at the time. Best Regards, Eric Hult

Very cool, thanks for the info. I never knew he had one of those horns! This might have been long before Oscar retired from the DSO? When I started playing tuba, Meyer's Music was located in downtown Royal Oak, with the tuba house right behind. That is where my York Master came from. That was in the mid 70's. As Bloke pointed out, these "York" Master tubas were actually B&M stencils. I don't know how much York participated in the design, but they weren't produced in Grand Rapids. When I sold mine, it ended up in Bob Rusk's hands and the new owner had it converted to CC. I played it a few years later and liked it even less than when I sold it.

Ironically, this history lesson also gives hope to the original poster about finding a horn he would like to play without being bound to a York product.

[Walter Webb]

If it's the YORK sound you want, with some critical intonation improvements, check out the Kanstul Yorks. Their PR about the magic brass alloy is a bit over the top, however. If you have been talking to Lee, I suppose he already mentioned Kanstul. http://www.kanstul.net/category.php?cat ... roundBrass" target="_blank

[aaronz28]

Hey fellas,
Thanks for the info.

Its always astounding to read theough the wealth of info, and relive history.
I am pretty sure that the horn I played with Oscar was his CC horn, but I do certainly remember the YorkMaster as it was BBb. I had been playing My HB21by then and would have noticed for sure.

But beyond that, he used to talm about his old York as if it were different from the one in his basement. I wonder who has that horn now..

Anyhow- i have sorta considered the Kanstul, but really do not want a new horn.
Idoubt many used Kanstuls are around.

Anyhow/. Im pretty much convinced myself to buy one of the two York CC cuts for now , and see what happens. If a HB2P or Hb21 come available at the roght proce, I would probably spend a few more $$ just to get a proven horn with a guaranteed resale if I ever needed to move it- although that would be the least of my concerns at this point.

Cheers

[aaronz28]

Well gang - i pulled the trigger on a used HB21 - i just couldn't pass up owning a Hirsbrunner again, and the price seemed right.
Should have it in my arms by the end of this week, or early next.

In the end, I just wasn't thrilled about buying a cut or modified York. I'll wait for a 712 to come around and have it restored as an original BBb horn - or if by some miracle I find one of the few CC horns.

thanks again !

Cheers

A

[Untersatz]

the piston CC Hb tubas have very wide appeal. I never pass one up at a good price. They are superb "selling" tubas.

So I guess it really depends if you are buying/selling one...............or planning on playing one???

[aaronz28]

the resale is an issue though

i fully plan to play and keep this horn - however, musical instruments either have an emotional connection or they don't -

intonation is an obvious concern - but Hirsbrunners aren't wildly out of tune instrument to begin with.. so i'm not worried about it - and actually worried much less than I would be buying a Cut York

BUT _ should the instrument not be my match, or if I find a horn I can't live without down the road - then selling a HB21 is a lot easier than any rotary horn I think.

cheers

Aaron

[Mark E. Chachich]

intonation is an obvious concern - but Hirsbrunners aren't wildly out of tune instrument to begin with.. so i'm not worried about it - and actually worried much less than I would be buying a Cut York

As I understand it, the York at Baltimore Brass was cut by Bob Rusk. In my limited experience with Mr. Rusk's modified 4/4 Yorks they have all had excellent intonation and the beautiful York sound. This tuba lives up to what I expect of Mr. Rusk's work (my opinion and I have played this tuba many times). I would not want to buy a Hirsbrunner, a York Cut, or any other tuba without testing the tuba myself, what works for others does not always work for me.

Congratulations on your Hirshbrunner. I hope that you have many happy years of tuba playing with your new friend.
Mark

[aaronz28]

Thanks Mark, 10 years ago, i wouldnt have dreamed of buying a musical instrument without playing it first-- now a days, with understood return policies, I am a little more confident in buying with the intention of keeping, as ling as I have the opportunity to return if the horn isnt up to par.

Ive lrobably purchased 20 guitars that way-
But would NEVER consider such a thing with a serious piano buy.

I am happy with my decision to pass on the 2 available York cuts.
Although I will keep on the lookout for another potential York, as I really do want to own one some day- just couldnt pass this HB21 up

Thanks
Aaron

[Mark E. Chachich]

OK, it is my turn to say that TubeNet saying that is uttered so many times,

pictures?

again, many happy years of tuba playing with your new friend,
Mark

[aaronz28]

will do as soon as i can
thanks

[aaronz28]

Here we go - just minutes after taking it out of the box -
my youngest, (18 months old) was screwing with my ability to remember fingerings

[Mark E. Chachich]

Aaron,

That is a good looking tuba, enjoy!

Mark

[aaronz28]

Played by an scruffy lookin dude