Trouble tuning a Miraphone 186

[eDoz]

Sorry if this isn't the right way or place to ask this question.

I've been playing tuba for about 15 years, on several different horns. For the past 4 years I've had a 70's model Cerveny 681 BBb horn that I've loved. I recently came across a late 70's model Miraphone 186 and started playing it. It's in much better shape than my Cerveny, so I wanted to make it my daily driver but I keep having a nagging issue with tuning.

The Cerveny plays the fundamental open notes all pretty well in tune together, so my low Bb, middle f, and Bb in the staff all play within 5 cents of each other. Everything else is very tunable. With my new-to-me Miraphone, those 3 notes vary wildly so I have to pick middle ground when tuning. The best I can do when I tune the F, the staff Bb is 10 cents sharp (lip down) and the bottom Bb is 15 cents flat (lip up).

Has anyone encountered a horn that was so out of tune with itself? It just doesn't make any sense to me. This Miraphone is silver plated, and is the only silver-plated horn I've ever played, but I doubt that has anything to do with it.

I've tried 4 different mouthpieces to see if any of the others I have might help the problem, but it's just out of whack no matter what I do. The rotors all seem to be aligned well and the action is great on the Miraphone. Any help/advice is greatly appreciated!

[Donn]

One of the easy things to check is water keys, a.k.a. spit valves, especially on a tuba like this that just moved to a new home after possibly sitting around a lot. I'm not saying I know how that would produce the effect you describe, but a leak can sure throw things off. Junk hanging out inside the tuba doesn't help, either.

[PaulMaybery]

Some of those early Miraphones, particularly ones from the mid to late 60,' (and this might include your 1970s model) had serious leadpipe problems that caused everything from bizarre pitch issues to notes that would not focus. On the east coast, I remember one friend took his BBb 186 to Bob Pallansch in Falls Church, VA. Bob installed a new leadpipe and problems solved. There were also some CC 186s with this same problem.

[Dan Schultz]

I didn't see in your post how long you've been struggling with the Miraphone. In my opinion... the Cerveny 681 can't hold a candle to the Miraphone 186. Could it be that your chops are so acclimated to the Cerveny that it's causing problems with the Miraphone?

[eDoz]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I'll try to rule out any obstructions and give it a good cleaning this weekend. I'm in Austin, TX fwiw.

I guess it's possible that I'm so accustomed to the tendencies of the cerveny that it's screwed up my playing. I've only had the miraphone for about a month with maybe 16 hours of play time on it. Prior to that it sat unplayed by the previous owner for about a decade. Thames again for all the suggestions. You guys are great.

[tubajoe]

186s have their quirks, but if it 'varies wildly' something might be wrong with it.

186, esp older ones do have different tendencies than say a Rudy or PT, or more modern horns etc...

The 3rd partial (bottom line F/G) can be a little flat, as to where on most horns it will be a little sharp. (but you may still have to pull for the 1st valve)

Also the outside octaves will be a little compressed.. for instance when you have the 4th partial (Bb/C in the staff) in tune, the octave up will be a tad low, and the octave down will be a bit high.

Also, the 2nd valve is a little low/long, and the 3rd valve a little high. Just a tad...

...a big factor is mouthpiece. If you use a bigger more dark/orchestral mpc (like a Conn Hberg/Laskey 30/Shilke Hberg2 etc etc) the intonation quirks will be more severe. With a more shallow, more cup-ey mpc/smaller throat, the tendencies may be less.

Also, leadpipe condition will have an impact... as well as other dents. A small leadpipe ding will affect things, as well as a deep ding on the side of the upper bow (as many old Miraphones have) will affect things.

And, remember that these horns were *completely* hand made... with hammers. So each horn is going to have it's own character, moreso than modern horns, even modern Miraphones which while handmade have parts stamped vs hammered.

[Paul Scott]

Another issue might concern the receiver. As I understand it, the older Miraphone receivers had a different taper rate and standard shank mouthpieces don't seat in them correctly. I encountered this with a student's Miraphone and it played much better after the receiver was reamed out properly. I recall buying Miraphone mouthpieces in the 1980s (Mirafone back then) that wouldn't quite fit in my non-Miraphone tubas due to this same difference in taper. Check and see if your mouthpiece shank can wobble from side to side when it is inserted into the tuba.