BBb vs F contrabass Trombone

[Ferguson]

I have experience on both. To me, a BBb contrabass plays like a very poor BBb tuba, but with lots more resistance, and the hand slides are rarely very good, given that they have double the number of tubes. Even when properly aligned, they're not very good. Unless you're already an uber-virtuoso player, a BBb contrabass is not something to really make lyrical music on. It's more of a sound effect thing to bolster the section. The BBb models go back to before trombones used rotary valves and F-attachments, and without a valve, that is the length of bugle you need to get the low notes. But now that we have a valve or two on big trombones, we don't need an open bugle that long to settle into the desired tessitura.

An F contrabass, with a little practice and long arms, can be nearly as nimble as a Bb/F/etc. bass trombone. The slide is fast, you usually have a quart and tertiary valve (like most Bb bass trombones), and you can make beautiful music on these. If you use Ben Van Dijk Euro-style valve tuning, the 2nd (quint) rotor switches between BBb and F, so you can use some similar hand slide patterns to the BBb models. (The first BVD rotor, adding 1-1/2 steps, substitutes for the slide handle that used to be commonplace.) The drawback to BVD tuning is that the scale patterns are no longer the same as bass trombone, so it makes switching from one to another somewhat troublesome. Either way, the open F bugle sets the horn in about the right tessitura for the music we see.

Some of your choice may lie in whether you approach it from a tubist or trombonist standpoint, and the tone of a BBb is certainly captivating, as it's a bit broader. But if attacks are more difficult and basic technical passages are overwhelmingly challenging, then what's the point of a BBb? Showing off? To whom?

A few purists will chime in and suggest that bass trombones should be in F. Historically, before we had rotors, they were. Well, to be snarky, my (modern) bass trombone _is_ in F, with an ascending valve to Bb. Trombones are mostly cylindrical and they slip and slide and they don't care what key you're in. It's all about how you look at it. Trombones are different than tubas and other valve instruments that way, so not all comparisons hold water.

I had Miraphone build several contrabass trombones in CC a few years ago. It was a cut down version of the BBb. The slide was 10cm shorter per tube, and each bell section tube was about 2cm shorter. They had two rotary valves. The first rotor was a standard quart ventil. The second rotor was a whole step to BBb, or you could reverse the linkage, stand it in BBb, and have an ascending valve to CC. Or you could add a crook to stretch it to two whole steps, like most bass trombone second rotors. For those desiring a huge horn with a more nimble feel, this seemed to be the ticket, and a few tuba/trombone players loved them. It was a different ball game though, as no one really knows trombone slide positions in C without some practice and internal rewiring. These were good players, much more nimble, less cylindrical tubing, more conical tubing, all around better than any BBb.

Within the Los Angeles professional low brass realm, I know that Jim Self and John Van Houghton play BBb, so did Tommy Johnson. Everyone else I've run across plays F. Why work harder than you need to? The F contrabass is kind of a spectacle in itself because it's so tall. It's unmistakable on a gig.

Look at Rochut #1, 8vb. Can you play it at audition quality on a BBb tuba? Yes? Cool. How much more technically cleaner might you play it on CC, Eb or F tuba? I know that's another thread (or 10 threads). But try to make the same comparison for different keys of trombones. I think F contrabass wins over BBb every time.

To learn F contrabass, go play a bunch of etudes you already know which are in the key of F. You use the normal Bb scale patterns and play by interval to get through the tune, pencil in a few fingerings, and within a few days, you'll mostly have it down.

Part of playing trombone is learning how to toss the slide and be efficient in slide movement, as in getting several notes in a row with one movement in the same direction. We trombonists don't always seek to play as many notes as possible with the slide all the way in. It's different than valve instruments, where if a note can be played in tune as an open (no valves) note, we do it. Trombones, not so much. That means a slide man needs a good hand slide to take full effect of the benefits of trombone. A BBb with double slide tubes doesn't cut it.

Mouthpiece:
BBb: small tuba mouthpiece
F: about 30mm diameter+/-, with bass or contrabass trombone shank, depending on the maker of the horn. Josef Klier 2A is popular. Doug Elliot makes some good ones too.

YMMV, good luck.

-F

[Ferguson]

The F is not a contrabass, no matter how you look at it, it's still just a bass in F. The only contrabasses I know of are in CC and BBb.

This is not correct. F bass trombone and F contrabass trombone are different instruments. An F contrabass is really in low AA or AAb, with ascending valves to F and other keys. An F contrabass with both valves down (again, trombones are mostly cylindrical anyway, so they don't care) is longer than a BBb contrabass with no valves (like an ancient straight BBb Miraphone).

-F
/I own a G/D/BB contrabass trombone and a straight Eb bass trombone (sackbut). They are different.

[Ferguson]

great post! thanks

I think one of the problems I had with the F was I threw my Eb tuba mouthpiece on it (small british shank) when I should have been using a contra trombone mouthpiece. When I go back to TMEA in February, that's not a mistake I'll make again

I'm glad to write. You might not have been far off with the mouthpiece. But it's trombone. Take that into account. You have to spit into a it a little bit, not breathe like do you into a tuba. And contrabass trombones, being so rare, have had little of the R&D of modern tenor and bass trombones, so even the best contrabasses still play...let's just say difficult in behavior.

You're likely playing a Thein there, yes? That's a good one. Haag, Jurgen Voigt, Kanstul, Thein, Rath, Latzsch, maybe others. Not Alexander. Not Jinbao, etc.

-F

[TheGoyWonder]

the semantics...make it stop. A bass trombone exists, and any trombone sufficiently larger than that is a contrabass trombone.

I've heard a BBb and it sounded like watered down meh tuba. A 3/4 size tuba would have been way better. F is probably closer to the real thing and looks better too without the extra loops.

[Ferguson]

The F is not a contrabass, no matter how you look at it, it's still just a bass in F. The only contrabasses I know of are in CC and BBb.

This is not correct. F bass trombone and F contrabass trombone are different instruments. An F contrabass is really in low AA or AAb, with ascending valves to F and other keys. An F contrabass with both valves down (again, trombones are mostly cylindrical anyway, so they don't care) is longer than a BBb contrabass with no valves (like an ancient straight BBb Miraphone).

-F
/I own a G/D/BB contrabass trombone and a straight Eb bass trombone (sackbut). They are different.

So, by this then, a Holton Superbone then a bass trombone or something else like a contra-alto?

No, the Superbone is a small bore tenor (piston) valve trombone that also has a movable hand slide for the novelty. Holton also offered a trumpet like that called the Firebird. Maynard Ferguson used one on occasion. The tessitura of the Superbone is the tenor range. The most well known virtuoso on that instrument, Ashley Alexander, called it his double trombone.

There's an opposite situation that's interesting. (Maybe it disproves any points made here?) Conn makes an Eb alto trombone with rotary valve to Bb, but the valve is for trill use, not because it's really a tenor trombone in disguise. It's still an alto. It's no different than an Eb alto with valve to D or Db, because they are all optimized to play high in the alto range.

We can't just rename something because of more valves.

We don't. It has to do with the range the instrument is designed for, and the size and taper, not just length, of the open bugle.

If the F contrabass is really an AA or AAb, why don't we call it that? For that matter, as with the valves, why don't manufacturers, historian, players, etc. call them that?

They can, you can, but for convenience we use the open key as the instrument key so that we have a common nomenclature. Hardly any two contrabass models seem to have the same valve tuning. Look at Michael Rath's model. He has a whole set of extra crooks available to tune it any way you wish.

You know how one starts pressing valves down on a 5 or 6 valve tuba, and at some point, it plays like a** with all those valves down? Trombones aren't like that. Good bass trombones are optimized to play as well with valves down or up, slide in or out, in the correct tessitura. A trombone mostly doesn't care how long it is. A good one plays fine no matter what fingering you use. Compare an old historic straight F bass trombone to a modern Bb/F bass trombone like a Kanstul 1670, which I play. On the F side of the Kanstul, the open bugle is the same as the historic model. But the modern trombone also plays in Bb, either by pressing or releasing a valve depending on your preference. (No one's really standing a Bb/F bass trombone in F, but either way, it's no less a bass trombone.)

French horns are traditionally in F, yes? So do we criticize the modern French horn player who uses a Bb/F double horn? What if it stands in F like the Americans do? What if it stands in Bb like the Germans do? It is true that a Bb/F double horn, being conical like a tuba, has a slightly different taper than a single F horn, but I suggest the comparison still holds.

The mostly cylindrical trombone doesn't care. A modern Bb/F/D double bass trombone has about the same taper (actually it's larger) as an ancient G/D British bass trombone. It's just that the modern instrument _also_ goes up to Bb on the open bugle. It makes it no less a bass trombone than one in G. A contrabass trombone, no matter the open bugle or valve tuning is much larger than any of those, and is _designed_ to play much lower down into the contrabass range.

On a euphonium, how does one play low Bb? Always open. How about on a bass trombone? Most often first position, sure, but depending upon the key of the tune and the surrounding notes in the riff, it's played in 3rd position on the F side, the same way a double French horn player has to make a choice of one side or the other based on tuning and convenience. And sometimes we play A, Ab and G in 4th, 5th, and 6th position on the F side. Other notes as well. It depends upon what the next note is. A trombonist doesn't want to play like Goofy the dog in a cartoon: in, out, in, out. We want to flow. A double trombone allows exactly that.

Trombones are different than tubas due to their cylindrical and sliding nature. You can't make steadfast rules about open bugle and tessitura like you might when talking about tubas and other valve instruments. It's for convenience that we use double trombones like French horn players use double horns, but it doesn't change the instrument's voice in the choir.

Anyway...

To answer Mark's question, I would get the F unless you really want to blow through all that extra tubing. Or get the CC that Miraphone makes and the Horn Guys sell, that looks like one hell of an instrument.

Just like everyone says about the F and BBb tubas, the CC seems like the best of both worlds - the breadth of the BBb with the nimbleness of the F.

We agree here. Thanks for your writing.

-F

[Ferguson]

... it is always ME (is it not?) who tends to lecture/pontificate about "giving an instrument what it needs".

I believe I've never personally figured out what one of those "needs".

You could start with lots of slide oil.

[Ferguson]

A bass trombone exists, and any trombone sufficiently larger than that is a contrabass trombone.

Nicely put. If only I could write as succinctly.

-F

[Ferguson]

Here's an interesting trombone that's difficult to categorize at first glance. I'm buying it, but it hasn't yet arrived, so I don't have many details. This is a modern F bass trombone with 2 valves. Edit: Dietrich Klienehorst of Gronitz built the bell section.



A traditional F bass trombone has no valves, a long hand slide, and a handle to reach the furthest slide positions. The lowest note is B. That's the sort of historical instrument one might use for the B to F glissando in Barktok's Concerto for Orchestra. I used to own a straight F bass sackbut with pull to E on the main slide that could do that, albeit with a tiny tone with me at the helm. Some British G bass trombones had a valve to D, but I haven't run across any F-C bass trombones with a valve.

To compare old to new-ish, here are 2 photos of a historic replica F bass trombone made by Yamaha for Douglas Yeo. That one's pretty big. There are smaller F basses. Note the handle on the slide. There's a German word for that handle that I've forgotten and can't find. Anyone? It's not Griff, but something more humorous sounding to American ears. Edit: It's Schwengel.





Here is a compact wrap German F bass trombone owned by Edward Soloman I believe. Alexander calls that shape the Opera wrap.



Note its resemblance to a modern Kanstul 1670 Bb/F bass (with pull to E). The Kanstul is modeled after a Conn 60H, which evolved from the earlier Conn Robert Fuchs model, which likely had a German archetype in Bb/F, or even an F bass before it.



Nick Eastop had an F bass made for him from a Conn 8H straight tenor trombone. It had a loop in the bell branch like Mr. Soloman's, and also a double looped hand slide. I wish I could find a photo of that one.

About the new one: My soon-to-be F bass was custom built for a player who wanted to use a standard length hand slide from a Bb trombone. This required an extra loop of tubing on the main bugle through the bell section and 2 valves, since the short hand slide only allows 5 or so positions in F/C. The dual valves make it look like a contrabass, but I wouldn't call it that, since overall it's a little smaller in taper, and as tuned you can't play all the low notes down to the fundamental pedal F.

The first rotor at lower left is a quart ventil to C, and it looks like you can pull a long crook to tune to B if necessary. The second rotor at right is a whole step to Eb, again akin to doing the chore of the old style handle used on the long hand slides; also like BVL tuning. I believe the lowest note with both valves engaged and hand slide extended would be about low A below the bass clef, not much lower even with that C crook pulled. It's likely missing a usable Ab, G and Gb above the pedal F. (Unless you're good at faking it.) To play the Bartok B-F glissando, you hold the second valve down and release it in the middle of your 7th-1st slide movement.

The original hand slide was from a King trombone, but the current hand slide is .547" bore from a Conn 88H. The bell is removable, and a second bell with a nickel kranz can be substituted.

-F

[Ferguson]

I'm 6 foot 8 with really long arms, I wonder how large a trombone I could get away with?

I'd be interested to see if I could operate a 7 position F without the handle extension

I'm 6'0", so your torso and legs are each likely about 4" longer. Maybe your arms are nearly 4" longer? The hand slide distance from low C to B would be the same length as the 6th slide on an F tuba or the second slide on a CC tuba. Or the same as the pull of a Bb/F bass' F slide to flat E, so about 7-8" on each side? I dunno...it's pretty far out there. I can just barely reach the C.

Doug Yeo:



-F

[Ferguson]

Detail of Heribert Glassl F bass sackbut E-pull mechanism. Instrument owned by Doug Yeo:

[Ferguson]

That F you are soon-to-be-getting sounds like this Eb bass:
http://www.mimo-db.eu/MIMO/infodoc/ged/ ... 0683_18414

I imagine the hand slide action on that instrument feels like this:



-F

[Ferguson]

I asked several locals what that slide handle is called. The closest we could get was "Kontrabassposaunenzuggriff"

-F
/if only there were a longer, more detailed word that we could use
//maybe Rindfleischetikettierungsueberwachungsaufgabenuebertragungsgesetz
///or Rechtsschutzversicherungsgesellschaften

[Ferguson]

Or das, was ich auf halten , weil meine Arme zu kurz sind für meine Posaune

-F

[swillafew]

A good trombone with a big mouthpiece goes low enough to where the lower pitched horns seem to me to be about as useful as a tuba mute.

[Donn]

I'm 6 foot 8 with really long arms, I wonder how large a trombone I could get away with?

Estimating based on note wavelengths, I get an 8" longer draw than on a Bb trombone. But my numbers turn out large for my Bb trombone slide length, so maybe I'm doing something wrong, or maybe trombones are a little shorter than the wavelength of their fundamental.

[Edit - for an easier and maybe better approximation, seems to me you could just divide the slide extension of a Bb trombone by 3. Which would be a little under 7 inches.]

[Bob Kolada]

Mark, you should be able to get a flat 6th position; I wouldn't count on getting 7th even if the horn has it.

[tubapix]

I have played a Miraphone BBb contra and used my Rose Orchestra and it EASILY was heard through 12 trombones and 4 tubas! I had to seriously back off due to the brassiness of the sound. The horns owner uses a Dennis Wick 1L and he seems happy with it but again he has to back off. Aside from that it was a lot of fun to play. I am 6'2" and the horn felt good to me even in 7th position. However, with a little foresight and utilization of the F attachment, 7th position is not an issue.

[southtubist]

I would prefer a BBb contra just for the raw killing power- it's more masculine.

Realistically, an F contra probably has more utility, if you actually consider a contrabone to be utilitarian. . .

[Ferguson]

I still want to try a BBb sometime, but who knows when I'll have a chance. it's not the kind of thing you ever see at TMEA. Maybe I'll take my daughter to an ITA event

Musikmesse Frankfurt is where to find one.
-F

[Ferguson]

I still want to try a BBb sometime, but who knows when I'll have a chance. it's not the kind of thing you ever see at TMEA. Maybe I'll take my daughter to an ITA event

Jim Laabs has the BBb contra and F thing for about $1,500

I would suggest that it's overpriced.
-F