sackbut

[Dan Schultz]

Search for 'sacbut'.

http://www.s-hamilton.k12.ia.us/ANTIQUA/sacbut.htm

[Dan Schultz]

Amazing

http://larkinthemorning.com/search.asp? ... ss=sackbut

[Dylan King]

Doug Yeo plays this fantastic looking sackbut replica in his Yahmaha video. Definately worth checking out.

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Con ... %2C00.html

[Mudman]

To get the same tonal effect, you can take a student-model trombone and cut off part of the bell-flare. If you want it to look authentic, get rid of the spit valve, and install flat braces.

Period instruments are often played by academic types who couldn't cut it on modern insturments. (The exceptions being great performers like Doug Yeo.) Early music concerts are often a deadly minefield of bad intonation--not only because the instruments are difficult to play, but because the players are less than stellar.

[corbasse]

To get the same tonal effect, you can take a student-model trombone and cut off part of the bell-flare. If you want it to look authentic, get rid of the spit valve, and install flat braces.

Period instruments are often played by academic types who couldn't cut it on modern insturments. (The exceptions being great performers like Doug Yeo.) Early music concerts are often a deadly minefield of bad intonation--not only because the instruments are difficult to play, but because the players are less than stellar.

What a load of predjudiced uninformed.... (fill in your favourite expletive on the dots)

Nowadays there are more than enough incredibly talented players out there who have taken the time and effort to really learn to play those old instruments extremely well. There is more than enough comptiton on historical instruments to weed out the ones who allegedly switched because they couldn't hack it on real, proper instruments. The times of getting away with butchering a late 19th century instrument and calling it "authentic" are long, long gone.

I have an all-baroque internet station on at the moment and haven't heard an out of tune note all day. They do use a non-equal temperament sometimes, something which an untrained ear could interpret as out of tune.

[Chuck(G)]

I've heard from trombone-playing friends who have tried antique sackbuts that most of the "authentic" samples have very leaky slides.

Can anyone confirm this? If so, do modern reproductions attempt to preserve this characteristic?

[windshieldbug]

I've heard from trombone-playing friends who have tried antique sackbuts that most of the "authentic" samples have very leaky slides

Why should these be any different than modern instruments? Anything that plays well gets played to death...
I suspect that manufacuring tolerances were a little greater... but then, how do we know what the hot setup was to lubricate a slide? I would guess that remained a pretty well-guarded secret at the time...

Period instruments are often played by academic types who couldn't cut it on modern insturments[sic]

Who else would want to perform on a double reed (crumhorn) that you have no direct influence over...

They do use a non-equal temperament sometimes, something which an untrained ear could interpret as out of tune

Well, something a non-programmable tuner would interpret as out of tune. I find many of the "non-equal" temperments sound more in-tune, unless one gets to far off-tonic

[Chuck(G)]

Why should these be any different than modern instruments? Anything that plays well gets played to death...
I suspect that manufacuring tolerances were a little greater... but then, how do we know what the hot setup was to lubricate a slide? I would guess that remained a pretty well-guarded secret at the time...

I can think of a couple of very logical reasons.

First off, the tubing made then would be seamed--a sheet rolled up to form a tube, then soldered and then worked to be as round as possible. If you've ever looked closely at even 19th century brass instruments, most of the tubing thus produced wasn't terribly round and uniform.

Second, since electroplating hadn't yet evolved sufficiently, the contact wouild be brass-sliding-on-brass, which would wear pretty quickly.

Maybe the special lubricant was chicken fat mixed with pork lard?

[Chuck(G)]

Go to www.trombone.org and open the History forum. Lots of discussion on sackbuts there.

Nothing directly confirming my suspicions on OTJ, just this:

Slides of the pre-industrial era must have been pretty rough. The technology to create good straight drawn tubing was not really there.

[Mudman]

What a load of predjudiced uninformed.... (fill in your favourite expletive on the dots)

Nowadays there are more than enough incredibly talented players out there who have taken the time and effort to really learn to play those old instruments extremely well. There is more than enough comptiton on historical instruments to weed out the ones who allegedly switched because they couldn't hack it on real, proper instruments. The times of getting away with butchering a late 19th century instrument and calling it "authentic" are long, long gone.

I have an all-baroque internet station on at the moment and haven't heard an out of tune note all day. They do use a non-equal temperament sometimes, something which an untrained ear could interpret as out of tune.

I do enjoy older systems of intonation, especially in pieces written to capitalize on wolf tones. However, there is no excuse for intonation that is just plain bad caused by lack of control over instruments, as is often the case in early-music performances in the US. Bad attacks and ensemble problems sound bad on any instrument, regardless of lineage.

There are some amazing performers who use early instruments. I'm just playing Devil's advocate.

Tone colour found in early instruments can be enchanting. Even so, for the most part, instruments were improved for a good reason. My personal taste is not to listen to much music performed on period insturments unless it is done well (haven't had the opportunity to hear much great playing in the US cities that I have lived in). I get a kick out of saying "you wouldn't want your doctor to operate on you using vintage surgical-instruments, would you?"

[Mudman]

First off, the tubing made then would be seamed--a sheet rolled up to form a tube, then soldered and then worked to be as round as possible. If you've ever looked closely at even 19th century brass instruments, most of the tubing thus produced wasn't terribly round and uniform.

Second, since electroplating hadn't yet evolved sufficiently, the contact wouild be brass-sliding-on-brass, which would wear pretty quickly.

Maybe the special lubricant was chicken fat mixed with pork lard?

There were some excellent slides made that were octagonal. Instead of producing round tubing, it was easier to hammer a sheet of brass into an octagonal shape. Some of these slides still work and play well.

Many sackbut slides were held together with beeswax and string so that the performer could take them apart for transportation. Could you imagine aligning such a slide?

[Rick F]

This one is called a 'contrabass' trombone, but from the bell flare, it looks more like a sacbut. Note the extender (or tiller) so you can reach the 7th position. Must be over 8' long!



Then there's the the contrabass T-bone (with double slide) that's wrapped like a helicon.

[corbasse]

I've heard from trombone-playing friends who have tried antique sackbuts that most of the "authentic" samples have very leaky slides

I don't know that much about sackbuts, but I do know original natural trumpets are quite leaky. They were built like that on purpose, because, in combination with the more irregular handmade tubing, it makes it easier to bend notes like the 11th and 13th partial into place.
Considering how they made the slides, I'm surprised they can be somewhat air tight at all

They do use a non-equal temperament sometimes, something which an untrained ear could interpret as out of tune

Well, something a non-programmable tuner would interpret as out of tune. I find many of the "non-equal" temperments sound more in-tune, unless one gets to far off-tonic

Unless you have a piece in something like E flat minor, in meantone tuning, where all the adjustments made to make the normal keys sound better collide

On a similar note, on the same internet station mentioned before I heard a performance of the Music for the Royal Fireworks, where the brass played without correcting any notes. That was a bit too much for me, even though I can listen to (french) hunting horns, (press play and do not adjust your audio ) without a problem.
It was probably the overly enthousiastic rendition of some of the players in contrast with the pretty playing violins which was a bit too much.

[corbasse]

I do enjoy older systems of intonation, especially in pieces written to capitalize on wolf tones. However, there is no excuse for intonation that is just plain bad caused by lack of control over instruments, as is often the case in early-music performances in the US. Bad attacks and ensemble problems sound bad on any instrument, regardless of lineage.

There are some amazing performers who use early instruments. I'm just playing Devil's advocate.

Tone colour found in early instruments can be enchanting. Even so, for the most part, instruments were improved for a good reason. My personal taste is not to listen to much music performed on period insturments unless it is done well (haven't had the opportunity to hear much great playing in the US cities that I have lived in). I get a kick out of saying "you wouldn't want your doctor to operate on you using vintage surgical-instruments, would you?"

Maybe that's the difference. I studied an lived in some of the places where the early music movement is really big, and I can see and hear a lot of the top performers on a regular basis, so I tend to forget there are also some less than stellar performers out there.

I do agree instruments improved for a reason, but I sometimes wonder how much is just change instead of improvement. In the struggle for more volume in the course of the 19th and 20th century a lot on the side of tone colour has been sacrificed. It's for instance much, much easier to get a wind section with 18th century instruments to blend and balance than a modern one. (That is, when you have competent players )

Maybe I wouldn't want my surgeon to use vintage instruments on me, but they've gone back to using leeches and maggots with great succes.

[Chuck(G)]

There were some excellent slides made that were octagonal. Instead of producing round tubing, it was easier to hammer a sheet of brass into an octagonal shape. Some of these slides still work and play well.

Many sackbut slides were held together with beeswax and string so that the performer could take them apart for transportation. Could you imagine aligning such a slide?

Not to mention removeable leather-lined flat braces! I'd think that the last thing a player would want under such an arrangement woiuld be a precision-fit slide (i.e., it'd have a tendency to jam if the whole affiar were the least bit out of kilter).

[MaryAnn]

There were some excellent slides made that were octagonal. Instead of producing round tubing, it was easier to hammer a sheet of brass into an octagonal shape. Some of these slides still work and play well.

Octagonal. Fascinating! I'd love to hear an instrument that was constructed entirely of octagonal tubing....!! The experimental physicist in me is wriggling at that thought.

MA

[punk_tuba]

its a renaissance pre-cursor to the trombone.

i was learning about it tonite in my music history course.