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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby bloke » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:23 pm

I've personally never encountered any tubas of this style (in C length) that were easily playable in tune.
Those "Kaiser" rotary instruments "live" in Bb, just as do baritones, euphoniums, and trombones.
Further, most professionals leave their Bb trumpets "stock" (as they are satified with them), but monkey-around and monkey-around and monkey-around with their C trumpets (again) trying to get them to play as they need them to play. Only (can we talk?) have a few easily-playable-in-tune C tubas been (finally) introduced to the market (any size range) in the last couple of decades, as (finally) some designs are based on "starting over", rather than being factory cut-downs of Bb designs.
Let's assume (for the sake of argument - to be demonstrated once these are 3D in people's hands, and not just pictures on our computer screens) that this really does offer a B&F/197 type of sound, yet does not require as many tuning adjustments as do the ancient B&F or M-W knock-offs...
Why (before even playing the Bb version) demand a C version?
The Miraphone 98 (a different style of very large rotary Bb tuba) absolutely rocks, YET (as soon as it was introduced and displayed) people were asking "what about a C version?"

:roll:

I like Mark a whole lot, but I'd like to see him play/evaluate what's being offered prior to asking about something else.

me...??
Yeah, admittedly I suggested an (optional...just as with big German-made Bb tubas) 5th valve, but that's not "starting over", there's plenty of room to install one, and (suddenly) a very easy low Eb and C (two handy pitches) would be available without being "faked" nor calling for "desperation slide yanking". (I just happen to strongly lean towards professional-grade instruments being fully chromatic.)

Why am I participating in this thread?
I see the possibility of something that is actually useful (not some gimmick) and not just "another knock-off of the same ol' thing".

I see this product as potentially USEFUL (and not a gimmick), just as I see the 6/4 compensating BBb as potentially USEFUL (a broader - and fully-chromatic - "bass" sound in a brass band or in a wind band).

The developer's consideration of a "German-made rotors" option creates even more interest. Currently (based on my experiences) there is one builder in China that manufacturers consistently satisfactory rotary valve assemblies...and its stenciled brand names neither begin with a Ea nor Ya.
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby Mark Finley » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:51 pm

I just like rotary horns more than piston, no matter what the key. Just like the Hagen (my favorite Miraphone offering) I'd like the see that playability, tone, and (if possible) intonation be applied to a CC tuba.

but the Hagen is good enough that if I had one, I would use it for everything I currently use a CC for (which actually is just orchestra music)
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby Doc » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:22 pm

Mark Finley wrote:I just like rotary horns more than piston, no matter what the key. Just like the Hagen (my favorite Miraphone offering) I'd like the see that playability, tone, and (if possible) intonation be applied to a CC tuba.

but the Hagen is good enough that if I had one, I would use it for everything I currently use a CC for (which actually is just orchestra music)


Understood. I know how you feel on those matters, personal preferences notwithstanding. I would actually apply what Joe said to those people who have the automatic knee-jerk, conditioned response (based on CC snobbery/brainwashing) of “will it be/it should be in CC.” The “inferior” BBb is not worthy of consideration. Doesn’t even enter their realms of possibility. CC elitism is alive and well with some.

Maybe we can take turns with it at TMEA and compare notes, make honest assessments.

And the 496 is the bomb. I want to try the 497. And I certainly want to try this tuba.
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby bloke » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:44 pm

Just fwiw...
Here's the German version.
The bell flare shape is more radical, whereas the new Chinese instrument's bell flare shape seems to represent a significant compromise towards normality...which really doesn't matter, if it ends up being a great tuba.

Image
Image
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby Ken Crawford » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:57 am

bloke wrote:Just fwiw...
Here's the German version.
The bell flare shape is more radical, whereas the new Chinese instrument's bell flare shape seems to represent a significant compromise towards normality...which really doesn't matter, if it ends up being a great tuba.

Image







A smaller bell flare version is in the works. It'll be called the Kaiser Presence.
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby Doc » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:18 am

Ken Crawford wrote:A smaller bell flare version is in the works. It'll be called the Kaiser Presence.


Call the big one the Kaiser Wilhelm. That way I can feel like it's my own personal signature model.
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby Wyvern » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:51 am

Mark Finley wrote:The cerveny 601 and the Neptune are very close, of course I have a 601 that I love, so it would take a lot to get me to change.

I'm surprised that Jonathan (former tubenet name "neptune") has not brought a neptune to the marketplace. He's obviously a fan.

And this isn't meant as a slap to his business practices, but with all of the Niche instruments he's had built and brings the to the marketplace, a Kaiser Rotary CC tuba is where he draws a line in the sand???

Maybe he thinks the marketplace is saturated, (miraphone, Tuono, ect) but I think there's room for an affordable Rotary CC out there, especially one larger than the standard 186 size


I did say (or at least mean) not a CC version of this Kaiser tuba (because we don’t think it suitable for such key conversion) - not that Wessex will never do a rotary valve 6/4 CC of any design.

Finding how much better the Wessex Chicago plays than even my special handmade Neptune, I would be far more inclined to use a York style body for a rotary valve CC if that proved possible - but it is not imminent - there are quite a few other planned developments to complete before even considering.
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby doublebuzzing » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:44 pm

Is $9,500 considered a budget horn these days?
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby Doc » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:11 pm

doublebuzzing wrote:Is $9,500 considered a budget horn these days?


Compared to $16K-$20+K hand-hammered tubas from European manufacturers, then yes. Yes, it is.
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby Three Valves » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:38 pm

Doc wrote:
Ken Crawford wrote:A smaller bell flare version is in the works. It'll be called the Kaiser Presence.


Call the big one the Kaiser Wilhelm. That way I can feel like it's my own personal signature model.


I’ll take a smaller 5/4 and call it the Kaiser Willy!!
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby Doc » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:10 pm

Three Valves wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ken Crawford wrote:A smaller bell flare version is in the works. It'll be called the Kaiser Presence.


Call the big one the Kaiser Wilhelm. That way I can feel like it's my own personal signature model.


I’ll take a smaller 5/4 and call it the Kaiser Willy!!


Vroom vroom!!!
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby bloke » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:57 pm

on German eBay right now:

if it overruns your viewing screen:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/HGcAAOSwAzZbLhmT/s-l1600.jpg
Image
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby Doc » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:23 am

I've seen it. Checked the bank account, cried a little, then got over it.
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby bloke » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:39 am

<sidebar>
personal experience only:
Four-out-of-four times, when I've purchased beautiful "restored" European-manufactured instruments from European eBay sites, they were only cosmetic restorations, sported many critical issues (which required ruining their cosmetic restorations in order to address, and - most importantly - ALL featured WORN-OUT VALVES (and linkage). This is also most often the case when people bring me their eBay-purchased American (cosmetic) restorations...i.e. WORN-OUT VALVES (and buffed-too-thin bows)...which is why I no longer accept such instruments for repair (at least, not shipped to me from afar).
Think of a gorgeous 1930's Roadster with a beautiful body and interior...but with a hopeless engine, transmission, and differential...oh, and with ill-fitting doors and fenders, which need to be taken off, altered, and repainted.
One reason that I don't restore a bunch of instruments and sell them is because so many "candidates" are crap, there isn't enough left to "put back", and those "restorations" would end up (not only with me being stupid-upside-down, labor-wise, but also) with significant percentages of those instruments being non-original.

<sidebar>
--------------------------------------
:arrow: This is JONATHAN's thread, about his really cool new Kaiser BBb tuba...
Back to your regularly-scheduled programming.
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby Wyvern » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:55 am

For those who wanted the dimensions of the Kaiser, the bore is 21mm (0.827”), bell 450mm (18”) and height 1148mm (45”).

And to clarify we are not planning on making with different size bells.
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby Wyvern » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:54 pm

Here is the Kaiser now silver-plated being play tested by me.

BTW Although a huge tuba, it only weights about 23lb due to being all hand-hammered from sheet brass.

Image

Now with me in the care of British Airways flying back from China...
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby AndyCat » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:29 am

Wyvern wrote:Here is the Kaiser now silver-plated being play tested by me.

BTW Although a huge tuba, it only weights about 23lb due to being all hand-hammered from sheet brass.

Now with me in the care of British Airways flying back from China...


Will Carl get this at any point Jonathan, I'd like a try!
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby MikeMason » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:05 am

How’s the rotary valve click-clack? Any improvement?
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby bloke » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:41 am

MikeMason wrote:How’s the rotary valve click-clack? Any improvement?


Earlier, I believe (??) it was indicated that a possible option would be either a German valveset or partially German valveset.
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Re: A Kaiser is born!

Postby Wyvern » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:07 pm

MikeMason wrote:How’s the rotary valve click-clack? Any improvement?

There is no click-clack. That was pre-quality assurance at factory and has long since been solved. No Wessex are ever accepted today with noisy valves (or any other defect as far as we can check)

Anyway this is lovingly made in the Wessex high-grade factory by craftsman to western standards - not your regular Chinese workers. I say lovingly, as each tuba is made by one craftsman who obviously take pride in their work (I have been observing them this last two weeks)
Last edited by Wyvern on Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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