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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby bloke » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:17 am

iiipopes wrote:
SteveP wrote:
bloke wrote: . . . and two exactly-the-same compensating Eb tubas (particularly if they are OLD 15" bell Eb tubas ...probably, an old picture), that is "IT".


Something like mine (see avatar)?

And a 3-valve comp (my favorite) at that, instead of 4-valve comp!!!


I used a (badly beat-up) Besson BBb 3-valve comp (on a lark/as a hoot) at a Memphis Symphony outdoor 4th-of-July concert. (Well...The vast majority of flag-waver tunes are in flat keys. :|) Even though the lower small bow (on the back...the one that people like to cut shorter on Eb tubas) was smushed nearly flat, it played beautifully for me with no-slide-pulling excellent intonation, with the only troubling pitch (just as with the Edgware Rd. factory euphoniums and German copies) being a sharp Eb in the staff. GREAT low range, BEAUTIFUL sound and TREMENDOUS volume...oh, and it was the 24-inch recording bell version. Had I chosen to (as discretion is the better part of valor...i.e. "I didn't wish to make a musical @$$ of myself"), I could have devastated the bass trombonist. :twisted: If the valves are [1] not worn and [2] properly aligned with these (assuming a fine player), the low range is wonderful (not "stuffy" as some claim).

...and the open low Eb, 2nd-valve low D, etc...were just as easy as with a Conn 14K sousaphone.

============================================
The genre began in Great Britain, and (I suspect) those countries continue to present the best of this genre. I would wonder (regardless of any lack of rules, etc.) how many of those bands use C and F instruments in those (from top to bottom) Eb/Bb/Eb/Bb/Eb/BBb instruments bands .
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby iiipopes » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:29 am

bloke wrote:...and the open low Eb, 2nd-valve low D, etc...were just as easy as with a Conn 14K sousaphone.

Hmm. There must be something to the "terminal node" theory of a large flare bell, since you compared the ease of privilege tones to a souzy, as my Besson 3-v comp with the 17" New Standard Bell would not play the privilege tones at all. Low E nat with all 3 valves was it.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby bloke » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:55 am

I have much more luck with those pitches on sousaphone-belled tubas than with any others...particularly if the bugle isn't oversize.
i.e. a 14K or a King will plays those pitches better than a 20K, but - because of the sousaphone-shaped bell - all play previously listed (and the Besson BBb "recording bass" as well) play these pitches better than a 6/4 "concert" tuba with an upright 20" bell.

random comment:
The same auxilary 19" upright bell (thanks, Bob) that I made for my recording bell comp Eb fits my recording bell BBb...so if there were ever to be a brass band formed around here...and were I invited to play in it...I guess I'm equipped (per my equipment rants in this thread).
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby MaryAnn » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:38 pm

I played my 184 (3/4) CC on the Eb part in a British style brass band (altos, not French horns) for years. It worked fine and the conductor had no problem with it. It was smaller than the BBbs and so could "pass" visually as an Eb. My NStar is more facile in the higher range than the CC was, but the CC worked just fine.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby Bob Kolada » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:21 pm

Using a large C on an Eb brass band part is about as appropriate as using a euphonium on a bass trombone brass band part...
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby EdFirth » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:56 pm

Well, since it is a British style brass band and therefore not for money one would think that you could bring whatever you like if you can cover the part. Although it strikes me as somewhat like playing a bass bone on the lead book or piccolo trumpet parts on a Bb or playing the soprano book on a tenor sax in a sax quartet. Sure there are folks who can do it but it sounds different. If some of you have heard the Brits play they are very BLEND orientated and I at least, find it easier to blend with the Eb Bb thing throughout the band. Not that it can't be done the other way, but not everyone in the group is a full time pro and it gets everyone more on the same page right off. But as stated above if the group is going for a more Americanized sound and everyone is on board why not use what you are comfortable with and just have some yuks.Merry Christmas All, Ed
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby DonShirer » Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:43 pm

     As an owner of a compensated Eb myself, I'd say that if you can play the part on your CC, then go for it. If they turned to you as a last resort, it would be rather gauche of them to complain about your horn if they can't supply an Eb themselves. I bet better than 90% of the typical audience couldn't hear a differernce anyway.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby Xenol » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:04 am

I'd advise against it for competing, depending on the judging body, some stipulate that the band has only Eb and Bb basses. http://www.nationalbrassbandchampionships.com/the-rules

For entertainment It's possible, but again not advisable, I can't imagine it'd blend very well, especially as you get into the upper range.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby AndyCat » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:53 am

The EEb part is the bridge between the Euphs and the BBb's, so if you can sound light and floaty some of the time on CC, fill your boots. And as mentioned, any is better than none.

BUT I'd always prefer EEb and BBb in a brass band. It's a niche thing. Even the non comps don't work unless in really good hands. (Mike Johnson plays a Cerveny BBb in Grimethorpe currently).

I have to agree with bloke. It's just "a thing". It works as it is.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby bloke » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:31 am

...and (along with top-notch playing/players and correct instruments) "the look" is a big part of it, as well...either beautiful uniforms ~or~ (yep, in this ONE case) tuxedos with black bow ties...as a tuxedo is a groom's (equestrian "blue collar" job) formal outfit, and these bands - traditionally - consist(ed) of "blue collar" workers who formed bands.

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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby eeflattuba » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:57 pm

In the almost 30 years I have played tuba with the saskatoon brass band we have a variety of different combinations of tubas played. As their is shortage of tuba players in this part of the world we have take what we can get.Our current line up seems to work the best.. I play on a besson soverign 981 ee flat while my stand partner plays on an imperial e flat compensating 3 valve tuba with a 15 inch bell.It is a great tuba for playing the upper e flat parts and the solos.Our bb flat section consists of a young man plying my bb Yamaha neo tuba which has a 19 inch bell.His stand partner plays on a ybb 321 which I believe has a 17 inch bell.Our conductor, a former percussionist, with grimethorpe, a top band in the UK,very much prefers this lineup.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby bloke » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:01 pm

eeflattuba wrote:In the almost 30 years I have played tuba with the saskatoon brass band we have a variety of different combinations of tubas played. As their is shortage of tuba players in this part of the world we have take what we can get.Our current line up seems to work the best.. I play on a besson soverign 981 ee flat while my stand partner plays on an imperial e flat compensating 3 valve tuba with a 15 inch bell.It is a great tuba for playing the upper e flat parts and the solos.Our bb flat section consists of a young man plying my bb Yamaha neo tuba which has a 19 inch bell.His stand partner plays on a ybb 321 which I believe has a 17 inch bell.Our conductor, a former percussionist, with grimethorpe, a top band in the UK,very much prefers this lineup.


To me, this grouping seems plenty authentic/correct.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby eeflattuba » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:33 pm

bloke wrote:
eeflattuba wrote:In the almost 30 years I have played tuba with the saskatoon brass band we have a variety of different combinations of tubas played. As their is shortage of tuba players in this part of the world we have take what we can get.Our current line up seems to work the best.. I play on a besson soverign 981 ee flat while my stand partner plays on an imperial e flat compensating 3 valve tuba with a 15 inch bell.It is a great tuba for playing the upper e flat parts and the solos.Our bb flat section consists of a young man plying my bb Yamaha neo tuba which has a 19 inch bell.His stand partner plays on a ybb 321 which I believe has a 17 inch bell.Our conductor, a former percussionist, with grimethorpe, a top band in the UK,very much prefers this lineup.


To me, this grouping seems plenty authentic/correct.
The imperial tuba i speak of is a fantastic tuba. While it will not win any beauty contests it perhaps one of the finest tubas i have ever played.We recently had a larger mouthpiece receiver installed on the horn, plus a complete overhaul.For an almost 50 year old tuba it plays fantastic.I will even, from time to time,play it a very good brass quintet i play in.It has a very dark and rich sound.As a sidelight, i use a denis wick classic gold plated 3L mouthpiece while my friend uses a gold plated denis wick heritage 3XL on the imperial.The sound coming out the ee flat tuba section right now is very good.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby marccromme » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:49 pm

I see no big problem using a CC for the lower part of an Eb brass band chart, especially if it is not a monstrous large CC. Many times it will be in a comfortable range. Sometimes even going down to E or D ( sounding G or F one over the pedal Eb). But playing the upper Eb part might be a challenge, they might go up to c with two ledger lines above the staff (sounding eb) or higher. This works better on smaller Eb tubas or even F tubas, as others have stated.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby bloke » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:36 pm

eeflattuba wrote:
bloke wrote:
eeflattuba wrote:In the almost 30 years I have played tuba with the saskatoon brass band we have a variety of different combinations of tubas played. As their is shortage of tuba players in this part of the world we have take what we can get.Our current line up seems to work the best.. I play on a besson soverign 981 ee flat while my stand partner plays on an imperial e flat compensating 3 valve tuba with a 15 inch bell.It is a great tuba for playing the upper e flat parts and the solos.Our bb flat section consists of a young man plying my bb Yamaha neo tuba which has a 19 inch bell.His stand partner plays on a ybb 321 which I believe has a 17 inch bell.Our conductor, a former percussionist, with grimethorpe, a top band in the UK,very much prefers this lineup.


To me, this grouping seems plenty authentic/correct.
The imperial tuba i speak of is a fantastic tuba. While it will not win any beauty contests it perhaps one of the finest tubas i have ever played.We recently had a larger mouthpiece receiver installed on the horn, plus a complete overhaul.For an almost 50 year old tuba it plays fantastic.I will even, from time to time,play it a very good brass quintet i play in.It has a very dark and rich sound.As a sidelight, i use a denis wick classic gold plated 3L mouthpiece while my friend uses a gold plated denis wick heritage 3XL on the imperial.The sound coming out the ee flat tuba section right now is very good.


I spent a bit of time with a modern-pitch 15-inch-bell 3+1 comp. Imperial...a fine instrument (all that you claim)...and somewhat rare, as - not too long after the modern-pitch ones were made (the vast majority, 3-valve comp.) - the 19-inch-bell-Eb thing had begun to dominate.

I'm thinking that a YEB-321 15" bell might (??) fit a standard-issue comp. Eb, but (well...) I already own too many nice-playing tubas that overlap each others' purposes. I now have BOTH a "compensating euphonium" AND a "five-rotor tenor tuba", for pity's sake (as if one wouldn't do the other's job 100% of the time). THAT HAVING BEEN SAID (though any serious brand band euphonium player should be able to play circles around me, so the point is moot), I would NEVER bring a rotary tenor tuba to play in a brass band.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby russiantuba » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:40 pm

I played in a group using F tuba on Eb parts, and CC on BBb parts.

I did the BBb parts when the group couldn't recruit or retain members on the BBb parts, and it was easier to recruit people on the Eb parts. One time, a player with only a BBb tuba was put on the Eb parts for NABBA. The conductor, who seemed to think anything that wasn't a top action 3+1 style instrument was of the devil, had less issue with a BBb part on an Eb part than a CC on a BBb part. At one point, we had all four keys of tuba present in our tuba section, and it was the best blended and best in tune section. At NABBA events when we had 3 keys of tubas, the judges commented how blended and balanced the tuba section was.

I no longer do brass bands. When trivial equipment choices seem to outweigh the musician and musicianship, I decided to move on to other stuff that didn't question the equipment I used.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby bloke » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:25 pm

I've posted this enough times, but (again) I think - beyond the level of excellence with which the art is executed - part of the art is the look and the particular equipment...just as with marching corps.

It's trivial to those to whom it doesn't matter, and is important to those to whom it does matter. We can look askance at Germans - who insist on their Bb-and-F tubas in their orchestras, but cannot argue with their success. I've never been involved with one of these bands. I'd like to - someday, and would bring along the traditional equipment, were I ever asked.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby Worth » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:00 pm

As the OP I would like to thank everyone for their knowledge and perspectives. If i were a pro, I might pull up with my CC just to wow people, but handled improperly it could also be an embarrassment. I've just secured a 15" bell mid-70s Imperial in outstanding condition from someone on this forum. Great valves too, even has the bottom bow spear (ouch). History of a small main tuning slide cut, but no other cuts to date. It's coming with an American shank receiver attached, and a British receiver on the side in case. More accomplished than me, the seller commented it plays best with a small shank Wick 3, shimmed. I dig the upper divisi parts, and realize this may not be the ultimate horn for the application, for me it's the bomb and a great mate for my mid-70s Besson New Standard Euph. I've already got a small shank Wick 2, ready to go and excited awaiting the fate of the Greyhound Gods.
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Re: Using CC as Eb in Brass Band

Postby Bob Kolada » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:13 pm

Congrats on the new horn!
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Re: Using Eb as Eb in Brass Band

Postby Worth » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:13 am

Bob Kolada wrote:Congrats on the new horn!


Thanks so much, I've been waiting to post a decent picture after a basic polish. Tuning and tendencies seem all well under control. I consider myself lucky to have found such a functional cool piece of history.
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