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Re: .748" bore is boring

Postby iiipopes » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:32 pm

Donn wrote:Trumpets aren't conical.

Well, yes trumpets are. Just not to the extent of other brass instruments. But all brass instruments have to have a degree of conicity, or the overtone partials structure that we rely on to play more than one octave won't line up to anything near what we consider Western tonal music. But don't just take my word for it:

https://acousticstoday.org/wp-content/u ... /Brass.pdf
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Re: .748" bore is boring

Postby roweenie » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:40 pm

Donn wrote:Trumpets aren't conical


Wow, I totally misread that - I thought he wrote, "trumpets aren't comical"....

(I was assuming he hasn't met some of the trumpet players I've worked with over the years.... :shock: )
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Re: .748" bore is boring

Postby Conn 2J CC » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:42 pm

There seems to be considerable interest within this thread in tubas with a bore size around .726” - .734”. I recently went looking through websites of current manufactures specifically for BBb horns in this range, which is the same as my Conn 32J BBb (.734”). The one I found of interest to me is Jupiter’s JTU1110, their four-pistons-in-front horn. Woodwind and Brasswind says it has a .732” bore, but Jupiter’s website says it’s .732” - .788”. Cascio Music says the same thing of Jupiter’s XO CC tuba, with four pistons and a rotary (.732” - .788”). This leads me to wonder if all four pistons on both horns are actually .732”, and the rotary of the CC horn is .788”. I should have the opportunity to find out the first weekend in February – I’ll be going to a rehearsal at a high school, and their band has a set of JTU1110s. Their director has already agreed to let me try them, since I may be interested in finding one on the used market. My 32J has many good qualities, but I’m wondering if would be more satisfied with a comparable sized horn that isn’t so mammoth.
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Re: .748" bore is boring

Postby bloke » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:52 pm

I myself have some .72X" bore tubas that are 90-something years old, as are 32J tubas (80-something to 90-something...i.e. not currently manufactured).

Personally, Jupiter products don't capture my imagination. Others, I'm sure, are enthusiasts.
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Re: .748" bore is boring

Postby iiipopes » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:20 am

Conn 2J CC wrote:There seems to be considerable interest within this thread in tubas with a bore size around .726” - .734”. I recently went looking through websites of current manufactures specifically for BBb horns in this range, which is the same as my Conn 32J BBb (.734”). The one I found of interest to me is Jupiter’s JTU1110, their four-pistons-in-front horn. Woodwind and Brasswind says it has a .732” bore, but Jupiter’s website says it’s .732” - .788”. Cascio Music says the same thing of Jupiter’s XO CC tuba, with four pistons and a rotary (.732” - .788”). This leads me to wonder if all four pistons on both horns are actually .732”, and the rotary of the CC horn is .788”. I should have the opportunity to find out the first weekend in February – I’ll be going to a rehearsal at a high school, and their band has a set of JTU1110s. Their director has already agreed to let me try them, since I may be interested in finding one on the used market. My 32J has many good qualities, but I’m wondering if would be more satisfied with a comparable sized horn that isn’t so mammoth.

Having played one when visiting a friend of mine at his school, yes, the regular 4 pistons are .732, at least on the BBb. The European version of the web site has listed 18.6mm.
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Re: .748" bore is boring

Postby TubaKen » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:38 pm

iiipopes wrote
Well, yes they are

Come on guys, you know Donn meant trumpets are "mostly" not conical. Sure, there's a flared bell, but probably 80% of the instrument is cylindrical (if you include the valves.)
What most struck me in the linked article about brass acoustics was this
Professional brass players may have from 3 to 10 different mouthpieces. As a general rule, the better the player is, the fewer the number of mouthpieces used, but most players
have at least two or three that are regularly used.
This was referencing the trumpet specifically. Multiply that number by 10 or 20, and you might be getting close! :lol:
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Re: .748" bore is boring

Postby bloke » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:25 pm

trumpet:
mouthpipe - conical
main slide - usually cylindrical
valve set - usually cylindrical
bell - conical
‘ reminds me of a tuba :|

mouthpieces:
- one per tuba or related instrument
- tubas: all the same rim, except one (the cimbasso, which really isn’t a “tuba”...BECAUSE IT’S CYLINDRICAL. :P :lol:

others:
- a scant handful of reference mouthpieces for mouthpiece customers who show up in-person...both styles of Conn Helleberg, a Chief-ish huge funnel, a Helleberg II, a couple of Bach’s...

NO:
- stunning “Desktop o’ Mouthpieces”
(Anything deemed not worth keeping has either been sold, or converted into something to beat on.)
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Re: .748" bore is boring

Postby Donn » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:29 pm

TubaKen wrote:Come on guys, you know Donn meant trumpets are "mostly" not conical. Sure, there's a flared bell, but probably 80% of the instrument is cylindrical (if you include the valves.)


Well, to be precise, the trumpet belongs to an acoustically distinct branch of the brass family, along with trombones, which is generally considered to be "cylindrical", where the tuba belongs to the "conical" family. If there's any dispute about that, it's news to me.

The question of exactly how cylindrical, is perhaps more interesting for brass instruments that don't fall directly into those two categories - or where it's a matter of dispute. Cornet and French horn might be examples of the former; I'd put British baritone in the latter. I know there are those who insist that it's "cylindrical", but it looks to me to be essentially the tenor member of the saxhorn family, below the alto horn. Here I think we return to the question of the importance of valve bore: the baritone's bugle gradual expands along its length, as can easily be seen on casual examination, even if it doesn't expand anywhere near as much as the euphonium, so the valves are invariably small relative to the average diameter and have to be installed near the small end, at a location where the bugle diameter is smaller. A valve trombone's valves on the other hand are, like the trumpet's, routinely installed at about the midpoint, and valve diameter is definitional for these instruments.
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Re: .748" bore is boring

Postby bloke » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:38 pm

Things can be posted, submitted for consideration, written into doctoral theses with footnotes (thus “proven” via “settled consenses”), vanity published, actually published, uploaded to YouTube with special-effects, and even made into memes by occupydemocrats...but none of those cause me to feel compelled to embrace what appear to be partial truths or non-truths. After all, I observe all sorts of other people who deny things that are obviously true to me, so what’s wrong with me denying things that seem obviously true to them?
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Re: .748" bore is boring

Postby Dan Schultz » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:06 pm

gionvil wrote:This is a very interesting thread. After many years playing .728, .689 and .750 tubas I really feel that now the best for me is the .728 or possibly .734 bore. Which piston CC tubas are available on the market new or used with the latter bore size? Are the Bohm & Meinl - Marzans .734?


The Bohm & Meinl-built Marzans in CC and BBb... both piston and rotary models were .748" bore.
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Re: .748" bore is boring

Postby bloke » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:42 am

Dan Schultz wrote:
gionvil wrote:This is a very interesting thread. After many years playing .728, .689 and .750 tubas I really feel that now the best for me is the .728 or possibly .734 bore. Which piston CC tubas are available on the market new or used with the latter bore size? Are the Bohm & Meinl - Marzans .734?


The Bohm & Meinl-built Marzans in CC and BBb... both piston and rotary models were .748" bore.


This same factory made the first valvesets (.748" bore) for those first European-made CSO York look-alikes...and - from that point - the stuck-in-.748"-mode began.
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Re: .748" bore is boring

Postby iiipopes » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:13 pm

Here you go: the specs for a Rudy Meinl "3/4" BBb tuba (which is what everybody else would call a "4/4" tuba): 17" bell; .730 bore.
Link to catalog: http://www.rudolf-meinl.de/fileadmin/te ... ospekt.pdf
3-4_B_Tuba_4_Zylinder_Ventile.jpg
3-4_B_Tuba_4_Zylinder_Ventile.jpg (31.83 KiB) Viewed 146 times
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Re: .748" bore is boring

Postby bloke » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:12 pm

iiipopes wrote:Here you go: the specs for a Rudy Meinl "3/4" BBb tuba (which is what everybody else would call a "4/4" tuba): 17" bell; .730 bore.
Link to catalog: http://www.rudolf-meinl.de/fileadmin/te ... ospekt.pdf" target="_blank
3-4_B_Tuba_4_Zylinder_Ventile.jpg


yep...and - were this model's intonation characteristics just a hair nicer - people would be breaking their doors down to buy these.
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Re: .748" bore is boring

Postby MaryAnn » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:47 pm

gionvil wrote:This is a very interesting thread. After many years playing .728, .689 and .750 tubas I really feel that now the best for me is the .728 or possibly .734 bore. Which piston CC tubas are available on the market new or used with the latter bore size? Are the Bohm & Meinl - Marzans .734?


I find it interesting for a different reason....my NStar has bore from .772 to .835 but it does not suck the air out of my lungs like a longer bugle with a smaller bore. (same mouthpiece.)
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Re: .748" bore is boring

Postby gionvil » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:00 pm

MaryAnn wrote:
gionvil wrote:This is a very interesting thread. After many years playing .728, .689 and .750 tubas I really feel that now the best for me is the .728 or possibly .734 bore. Which piston CC tubas are available on the market new or used with the latter bore size? Are the Bohm & Meinl - Marzans .734?


I find it interesting for a different reason....my NStar has bore from .772 to .835 but it does not suck the air out of my lungs like a longer bugle with a smaller bore. (same mouthpiece.)



That can be another solution, I never thought about going "shorter"...
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