Trombones besides Bach in the section

[ken k]

Well Edwards is great I think.

I've asked quite a few professional trombonists this question "point blank":

If an Edwards trombone were outfitted with a more traditional F attachment and the bell were stamped with the name of its actual maker: GETZEN, WOULD YOU have considered buying it?

To a player, they have all answered,

...I don't know...

I did and I do. I sold my Edwards and went back to rotors and got a 1052. Plays great (and less filling!) The rotor section is oversized so the valve sectin is very free blowing. The only difference is that the bell section is not modular. The slide is the same and has 3 interchangeable leadpipes.

ken k

[bttmbow]

This topic can become a "can o' worms" REAL quick, but nonetheless, I feel like I can/should say a few things about it, anyway.

In the MET trombone section, we have two Principal(1st) players, one regular 2nd player and two Bass Trombonists, one of them sometimes filling in on the 2nd part, if the repertoire is deemed OK to be played on Bass.

This being said, we have not had ONE brand being played by the whole section. Our audition process is all behind the screen, so the people that win the audition play with the kind of sound/approach/musicality that fits our needs in the orchestra. So, what I'm getting at is that no matter WHAT you are playing ON, you will STILL sound like YOU. YES, there are differences from brand to brand, but the player is the most important piece of the equation.

The original poster obviously hates this Courtois Trombone, at least the way the player sounds on it, so if the TROMBONE section feels as strongly as the tubist, an "intervention" might be helpful.

On this idea, I have very strong opinions myself about what MY favorite tenor and bass trombones are, but if the player CONTRIBUTES well to the sound of the section, I wouldn't care WHAT they were playing on!

That's all for now!
CJH

[MartyNeilan]

We were playing excerpts one afternoon and he A/B-ed the super-expensive "custom" 'bone against the old Bach.
The Bach sounded SO MUCH better (like turning on a light bulb) that the three of us who were being polled actually chuckled... The "S"-brand sounded VERY fuzzy compared to his Bach.
bloke "He's still playing the 'S' brand 'custom' 'bone anyway. "

One of the biggest problems with "custom" trombones is that there are so many options, that many players take things to extremes - biggest, darkest, heaviest, etc. Were they to buy a "stock" horn, it would probably work much better for them. It is almost amusing sometimes to see the poor choices made, and how they combine to make something virtually unplayable.
Imagine if the tuba world was the same - building a "custom" horn with six .880 bore pistons and a two .950 rotors, a leadpipe that was nothing but a huge straight tube, 30" cast iron bell - just the ticket for the Principle Kolledge players!

[Evil Ronnie]

Plus, I can and have "faked being an independent" by playing Db in 2nd with both valves on fast stuff (particularly the F-Eb-Db-C-Bb run in Candide). Works fine in 16th note runs.

Bob,

If you tune your second valve to d that gives you low Db (and in the staff) in long 2nd position. I understand that as I played dependent for years.

My question is: How is that "faking independent"? You are using a dependent horn as it is intended to be used?

[Evil Ronnie]

no, I mean the Db IN the staff. The biggest thing I did that for was a 16th note run (F Eb Db C Bb). I played it-
1st, 3rd, D2, F1, 1st

I understand that you mean in the staff.

Tell me how using both of you valves on a dependent bass is "faking independent"? There's nothing "faking independent" that I see here. You're just using both of your valves to play a sixteenth note run, right?

[Evil Ronnie]

Funny phrase? Not really.

My question is: Why say stuff that isn't true, accurate, or even close to the truth? Maybe remarks like the one above are why people on this forum and TTF are constantly wailin' on you?

Think more. Type less.

[MartyNeilan]

Evil Ronnie: 5 posts
Bob1062: 2166 posts

Poor ol' Bob gets enough grief from the regulars here. As newcomer to TubeNet (Welcome!) please try to have a little more patience with Bob, Bob has good intentions and you might even grow to like him after a while.

[TubaRay]

Poor ol' Bob gets enough grief from the regulars here. As newcomer to TubeNet (Welcome!) please try to have a little more patience with Bob, Bob has good intentions and you might even grow to like him after a while.

Well, it could happen.

[TubaRay]

Poor ol' Bob gets enough grief from the regulars here. As newcomer to TubeNet (Welcome!) please try to have a little more patience with Bob, Bob has good intentions and you might even grow to like him after a while.

Well, it could happen.

Oh Ray, I've ALWAYS liked you.

Hmmm. I must be doing something wrong.

[jsswadley]

Thanks everybody, especially to CJ from the Met. You reminded me that maybe the equipment aspect is less important that the player. In Vienna (before Bousfield) the first trombone Josel played a Holton of all things and he always sounded like a god on it. The second players had a Conn and a Laetsch and one of the bass trombonists was playing a German instrument until Stroecker arrived with his Bach. I think there's more room in an opera orchestra for different types of sound color than in the symphony orchestra. Of course a similar concept has to be there.What I find objectionable is the big lack of color in this particular Courtois and in the Edwards instruments in general. John

[tubafatness]

Funny phrase? Not really.

My question is: Why say stuff that isn't true, accurate, or even close to the truth? Maybe remarks like the one above are why people on this forum and TTF are constantly wailin' on you?

Think more. Type less.

Ouch....
I thought what Bob said was a little odd, until I saw the reasoning. It would have helped to describe which Db was being played, but that's just a small thing. What's with the acid?

[Wilco]

My 'first' instrument is the tenor trombone. I play on a Courtois 420 with a sterling bell (solo trombone in a brassband), it's an excellent instrument. It has a much more even blow and response than a Bach (played on a 42b before the Courtois). Sounds better too. Generally.... I think the Courtois bach clones sounds a bit lighter than the Bach.

The 1st and 2nd bones of the Concertgebouworchestra play Courtois. Do a search on Jorgen van Rijen (1st of KCO), he sounds fantastic on his Courtois (he developed his instrument with Courtois).

Hey Guys! This is not a survey, but a totally subjective question. Do the trombonists in your orchestra use instruments besides Bachs and if so what is your take on that? I would especially like to hear what you orchestral tubists think about 1.) Edwards and 2.) Conn trombones. Is anyone in a section with a Courtois? I am, and frankly I think it stinks. Could be, and probably is the player, but all opinions are welcome. John

[tuba_hacker]

Jorgen van Rijen is a member of the New Trombone Collective that I mentioned earlier in this thread. I saw him perform and give a masterclass at the ETW this year. Amazing player.

[tubacdk]

a lot of the orchestral freelancers in LA are now playing Shires. the section I played with last week was 1st - Shires (no valve), 2nd - Shires w/ thayer, Bass - Yamaha dependent (and me on my Nirschl). This week it's 1st - Conn straight, 2nd & Bass both on bach.

I've heard people sound great on Shires and people sound mediocre on Shires. I think those horns are generally good but not always. I've never played with someone using a Courtois, at least not that I remember. Getzen/Edwards seems to be good, but they aren't as popular here as they used to be. I know a couple people who use Getzen bass trombones and they're good. Conns are still fairly popular here, and they still hold up really well even in sections with larger horns. They have a sweet centered sound that cuts through well and is easy to lock on to.

-ck

[Wilco]

And I believe Jorgen plays mostly (if not completely) on a 6.5 (DEFINITELY not a standard orchestral American large-bore mouthpiece)!

He plays everything with that mouthpiece. The cup is a tiny bit more shallow than the bach 6,5....